J. Grove, Hagerstown, Md.

[Dale Campbell]

On page 52 of Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850, and #40 in The Kentucky Rifle by Merrill Lindsay is a rifle by J. Grove, of Hagerstown, Md.  I am also posting a related question under building.  My son is interested in having me help him build a flint rifle based on (not a copy of) this one.  All we know is barrel length, rifle length, and butt plate width. With that in mind:
1)   Are any other pieces by him known?
2)   Are there any other pictures of this piece available?
3)   Has anyone handled this gun who could give some good pointers on things to be aware of?
4)   Things to watch out for?

Anything will help.  Thanks.

[Dale Campbell]

Not exactly a bump, but specific questions:

1) None of the pictures I have seen show the barrel tang.  Can anyone give a brief description of shape?  Flared, round end, thumbnail?

2) Does Reeves Goering carry one similar?  Where can I get his list?  TOW has a wax cast Maryland plate, and a relatively similar York (Grove seemed to have similarities to York rifles).

3) Any thoughts as to why the Grove carving is so similar to the Haines carving?

Please bear in mind this rifle is "inspired by" not a copy of...

[Ed Wenger]

Hey Dale,

I don't have the referenced book in front of me and I'm not real familiar with Mr. Groves work, but I think you'll find a lot of the Maryland rifles were heavily influenced by York County builders.  That only goes to reason given the close distance involved.  Even Armstrong rifles show evidence of this.  Quite a few of the Maryland rifles had a York style butt piece and trigger guard.  Also, I've seen the Floir-de-lease (sp?) design  used around the tang and rear ram rod thimble, the same one made so famous by Mr. Schroyer of York County.

Having said all that, I'm thinking you might consider using the measurements and architecture of the Groves rifle and use the York influence, and/or other Maryland builders,  to guide you with the other details since you're not doing a copy.  As far as the tang shape goes, you'll find that all the examples you listed were used.  I. Haines had a big influence in the area and Lancaster's not that far from Hagerstown.  I'd say that probably has something to do with the Haines style carving.

I don't have Reeves number in front of me either, sorry.  If someone else doesn't chime in, I can get it for you.  About two months ago I spoke to Reeves about Armstrong furniture.  He had a pattern for the TG and butt piece but hadn't cast anything.  Don't know if that would be what you're looking for or not...  TOW just came out with some new Armstrong castings as well...  Hope that helps some.

           Ed

[Karl Kunkel]

There were Grove's in York County, but up north in Lewisbury, Newberry Twp.  (Samuel Grove Sr & Jr, George Grove).

[Dale Campbell]

Thanks, guys.  Helps a lot. Ed, your suggestions are kind of the route I was thinking to follow. 

[Herb]

Dale- a different J. Grove .44 caliber converted caplock is shown on page 37 of "The Kentucky Rifle, A True American Heritage, 2nd edition".  Your rifle is pictured on page 192 of Chandler and Whisker's "Behold, The Longrifle".  It shows the top of the buttstock to the breech, including the tang.  Guess you call it thumbnail?  Also same one is shown in "Maryland Longrifles" by Hartzler and Whisker, pages 63, 64 and 65.  Pictures show the same comb top, the trigger guard area and the entry pipe and carving behind it and the nose cap, front rod pipe and forestock carving.  Two of his buttstock scroll carvings are shown on page 107.  If you don't have access to these books, very likely you can get them through an interlibrary loan.  Ask your librarian.

[Herb]

Your rifle and the one from Kentucky Rifle are also shown in "Gunsmiths of Maryland" by Hartzler and Whisker, pages  96 and 95, and a third one, a flintlock, on page 97.  This one is ornate.  Photos of buttstock carving, lower forend carving and wire inlay, toe line inlays, silver nameplate inlaid in the barrel, and a toeline patch box release.  Also the top of the buttstock and tang.

[Herb]

I wonder if that helped him?

[Dale Campbell]

Yes, lots of help.  I'll have to talk to the librarian.  She's not a big gun nut, but since I'm married to her, she does bring me home books .  I'm not so sure the books recommended are in the system (Fingerlakes Library), but I'm following up.

[Herb]

With an interlibrary loan, your librarian goes into the computers and finds the book you want.  It may be in a library anywhere in the US,  including the Library of Congress. Upon request, that library ships their book to your library.  There is no cost involved in this, perhaps postage sometimes.  The Uintah County Library here in Vernal has Jim Gordon's big three book set "Great Gunmakers for the Early West".  He had this privately printed, there is no ISBN number.  The set weighs about 14 pounds in a slip case, it can be checked out of our library but I do not know is they will send it out in an interlibrary loan.  I bought my own set from him for $295 shipped.  Our library also has Richard F. Rosenberger and Charles Kaufmann's book "The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania, Allegheny and Westmoreland Counties".  I bought my copy and suggested to the library that they buy a copy.  There is a Jacob Wigle rifle pictured in it, and he built a rifle that is in our Utah Field House of Natural History State Park Museum.  It was found in a cave near here with a mixed blood Indian child burial in the 1920's.  I restored this rifle so it could be used in a Mountain Man display, presently not on display since they moved to a new museum.  I probably have pictures on this forum in the archives.

[Herb]

Dale, I found another J. Grove (Groff) rifle, an early gun.  This is in  Whisker's "Gunsmiths of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania",  page 111.  This is a flintlock with a Lancaster daisy patch box, single trigger, a little incised carving, almost no engraving and no inlays.  A plain but nice rifle.