Author Topic: Southern Mountain Rifle?  (Read 4808 times)

Offline maharsb

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Southern Mountain Rifle?
« on: June 14, 2025, 05:05:13 AM »
Just took possession of this one this week. Any thoughts on when and where it might have been made? Barrel is 45 1/4” about 1” at breach .8” in the middle and 1.1” at muzzle. My cheap gauge says it is between 40 and 42 caliber.
















« Last Edit: June 14, 2025, 10:36:21 PM by maharsb »

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2025, 04:08:22 PM »
I can't tell you anything about it except that I like it.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2025, 04:44:40 PM »
Thanks, I’m pretty fond of it myself. It a light slender rifle. It weighs about 8 lbs

Steven

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2025, 09:44:51 PM »
The forestock molding is a single thin line that runs from the carving at the ramrod entry all the way to about an inch or so from the muzzle and curls up under the ramrod.

Offline AZshot

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2025, 04:44:01 AM »
To me it does not look like an Appalachian school (southern mountains) rifle.  The tang, thin rounded off front of comb, triggerguard finials, and carved butt aren't typical of NC or TN rifles. 

But there is one I've seen that has that "lip" in front of the comb dropoff to the wrist.  Edward Harper rifles have a similar feature. I see a Kennedy rifle with a similar lockplate escutchion. Here https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59267.0.  Check David Kennedy rifles or other Kennedy's too...might be a Bear Creek school.  Hope Michael Briggs sees this post.

Or it might be from the Shenandoah Vally, Virginia rifle.  I'm asking a friend and member what he thinks about that.  Or it might be a schimmel rifle. 

The more I look at it, the more I like it.  A very interesting rifle.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 04:54:06 AM by AZshot »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2025, 02:37:23 AM »
I find quite interesting, the distance between the grooves of the 8, 9 and 10 o'clock grooves in the picture.
Appears to me, should have had 6, not 7 grooves. One might have been just a tiny bit wider is all.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2025, 02:52:21 AM »
I find quite interesting, the distance between the grooves of the 8, 9 and 10 o'clock grooves in the picture.
Appears to me, should have had 6, not 7 grooves. One might have been just a tiny bit wider is all.


I didn’t even notice that before Daryl. That’s probably why I was having trouble getting a consistent reading with my caliber gauge.

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2025, 03:01:41 AM »
To me it does not look like an Appalachian school (southern mountains) rifle.  The tang, thin rounded off front of comb, triggerguard finials, and carved butt aren't typical of NC or TN rifles. 

But there is one I've seen that has that "lip" in front of the comb dropoff to the wrist.  Edward Harper rifles have a similar feature. I see a Kennedy rifle with a similar lockplate escutchion. Here https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59267.0.  Check David Kennedy rifles or other Kennedy's too...might be a Bear Creek school.  Hope David Briggs sees this post.


Or it might be from the Shenandoah Vally, Virginia rifle.  I'm asking a friend and member what he thinks about that.  Or it might be a schimmel rifle. 

The more I look at it, the more I like it.  A very interesting rifle.
Thanks AZshot,
I will check that out. The fella I got it from said it was either NC, Virginia, Or Tennessee.  I kinda ruled out TN myself, it just doesn’t seem right.  Either way it is a nice rifle. The pictures really don’t do it justice.  It is well made with a highly swapped barrel that flares out quite a bit close to the muzzle.  The trigger guard is crudely made but the rest of the rifle is quite skillfully made.

Steven

Online rich pierce

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2025, 03:06:00 AM »
Forestock looks a lot cleaner than the buttstock. Unusual suite of features. Carving and no buttplate. It’s a very cool looking gun but a mystery as to where it was made.
Andover, Vermont

Offline AZshot

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2025, 03:33:29 AM »
I'm leaning towards Southwest Virginia. 

I have one like it that was hard to identify also.  I think it's also SW Virginia, based on some discussions with some collectors there.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=73585.0

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2025, 03:54:28 AM »
One thing I find interesting is on the trigger guard it looks like a nail or some other piece of metal through the front that is pinned to the stock, but a screw is used on the back. Is that something that was common or is it unusual?

Steven

Offline AZshot

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2025, 03:08:39 PM »
I believe mine uses a nail in the front.  I'll check the rear later.


Offline bama

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2025, 04:58:04 PM »
Is the trigger guard Iron or Brass? It is hard to tell from the prictures but it looks like a casting instead of being hammered out. It reminds be of a musket guard I have seen somewhere. That's not a detracktant for me but I was thinking that if it is a reused guard that may point you to a possible location of where it was built.
Nice rifle
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline AZshot

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2025, 06:41:07 PM »
The original poster's triggerguard is here:

« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 04:17:29 PM by AZshot »

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2025, 11:58:58 PM »
Here are some better pictures of the guard. It is iron. You should be able to see the nail in the front as well as the pin.




Online rich pierce

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2025, 12:12:56 AM »
The guard appears to be from a French musket.
Andover, Vermont

Offline whetrock

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2025, 01:57:32 AM »
Very nice.
Looks to me like the rectangular "nail" in the front extension is a staked lug, for the pin just above it. ("Staking" is like riveting, but with staking, the part that gets smashed/peened is a piece made so that it protrudes off one of the main pieces. In contrast, a proper "rivet" is just a little thing that holds bigger pieces together.)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 02:01:57 AM by whetrock »

Offline whetrock

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2025, 02:13:05 AM »
To me it does not look like an Appalachian school (southern mountains) rifle.  The tang, thin rounded off front of comb, triggerguard finials, and carved butt aren't typical of NC or TN rifles. 

But there is one I've seen that has that "lip" in front of the comb dropoff to the wrist.  Edward Harper rifles have a similar feature. I see a Kennedy rifle with a similar lockplate escutchion. Here https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59267.0.  Check David Kennedy rifles or other Kennedy's too...might be a Bear Creek school.  Hope David Briggs sees this post.


Or it might be from the Shenandoah Vally, Virginia rifle.  I'm asking a friend and member what he thinks about that.  Or it might be a schimmel rifle. 

The more I look at it, the more I like it.  A very interesting rifle.
Thanks AZshot,
I will check that out. The fella I got it from said it was either NC, Virginia, Or Tennessee.  I kinda ruled out TN myself, it just doesn’t seem right.  Either way it is a nice rifle. The pictures really don’t do it justice.  It is well made with a highly swapped barrel that flares out quite a bit close to the muzzle.  The trigger guard is crudely made but the rest of the rifle is quite skillfully made.

Steven

Michael Briggs is on here. He's an expert on NC rifles. I'd think he can give you some good info when he sees it.

Offline AZshot

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2025, 04:55:33 AM »
I type-o'd Michael's first name, typing fast.  Yeah, I figure he'll let us know if there is an NC connection.

I talked to a few of my SW Virginia friends, they both say SW Virginia.  One says Wytheville area, which is what I was thinking too.

Offline Jacob_S_P

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2025, 01:43:06 PM »
There is a little bit there tha6 COULD be SW VA, the lines of the butt are nice and could be. That guard looks like a crude replacement of a much nicer guard. Would love to see it in person but a Wythe Co attribution is a stretch for me.

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2025, 02:38:40 PM »
I agree. The trigger guard is much lower quality than the rest of the gun. It is a little shorter than the cutout where the original probably sat. It does appear that it has been on the gun for a long time, but it probably is not original. But I could be mistaken.

Thanks,
Steven

Offline Jacob_S_P

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2025, 03:14:44 PM »
Let's  say it WERE a Wythe Co rifle, the trigger guard that was on it would likely have been immaculate. At the very least tastefully crafted.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2025, 03:52:35 PM »
I would bet the guard is from something else. Maybe orig guard lost or damaged.
Also could be thus is what builder had on hand.
Ive been guilty of such until i found better
Just my obs.
Nuthin but a thing

Offline AZshot

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2025, 04:40:02 PM »
I agree the triggerguard is probably a replacement, why else would that 1/4" gap be at the toe of it?  More important clue - the butt molding line was carved before the triggerguard was put on.  It's inlet actually overruns and ruins that line, in places on the side.  (click buttstock photo for larger).  No gunsmith making a fresh rifle would have carved that line, then destroyed it to install a triggerguard toe.

Also, the hammer was replaced, and likely the lock.  What I'm surmising is this was a simple rifle made for someone cheaply.  Later, maybe further on the frontier, the owner and settler had the triggerguard replaced when broken, then later converted the rifle to percussion.  There is no buttplate, the key indicator of an economy model by a gunsmith that may have be able to add one if requested.  The carvings are simple but well done.  The buttstock molding line and forend are well done.  The stock archtecture is nice, thin and the cheekpiece is wll let down on the side of the stock. 

I would guess the rifle was made by a somewhat skilled gunsmith out on the frontier after the Wilderness Road was built. Maybe 20 years after settlers started using it, they still needed rifles and would want one cheaper than a fancy norther Virginia or Pennsylvania rifle.  The gunsmith may have watched his father or uncle build them as he was growing up in the first decade of the 1800s, who learned further north, and just followed his lead to make this one.

I've taken the liberty to right the photos to the view we are most used to seeing:



« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 04:44:41 PM by AZshot »

Offline maharsb

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2025, 12:28:32 AM »
To satisfy my curiosity I went ahead and took off the trigger guard. You can see where the back of the original went. It also appears that this one has been on it a long time. At least it’s not something very recent.