Author Topic: Kibler Brown Bess  (Read 7925 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2025, 02:44:52 PM »
Thanks guys.  I'll get more photos soon.  Here's an interesting aside...  I was curious how thick of wood I'll need to produce stocks.  As massive as this gun is, the buttplate is only a 32nd over two inches and the lock panels are about the same.  I'd have never guessed this.  Even when handling, everything still feels robust and large. 


Offline smart dog

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2025, 05:36:24 PM »
Hi,
The pattern 1756 was the second British musket designed from the outset to have a steel rammer.  Consequently, it is slimmer than the previous long land muskets that mounted wooden rods.  I've measured quite a few and the width of the stock at the breech was always less than 2", in some cases as thin as 1.85".  The width of the wrist at the beginning of the comb is usually less than 1.75" so they taper a bit.  The earlier patterns also had more drop at heel and often are more comfortable as shooters for most folks.  The stocks were straighter after 1756 and drop at heel reduced from about 2.5" to less than 2".  Stocks are even straighter on the later short land muskets.  For example, I  picked out one of my tracings for a Tower marked pattern 1756 used by the 63rd regiment, possibly at Bunker Hill.   The drop at heel was only 1.75".  I picked out another tracing which was for a Dublin Castle marked pattern 1769 short land musket used by the 34th regiment and captured at Saratoga in 1777.  Drop at heel was only 1.625".   When I shouldered that shortland, it was really tough to get my cheek down on the stock.  Still it was a well balanced and beautiful gun.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline TF Black

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2025, 01:27:14 AM »
Love this thread!

I got the flintlock / colonial-era collecting bug a few years ago, after collecting guns from later eras for years. As I got started in this new era and began doing my homework (books, shows, online forums, etc), I expected that unlike collecting later eras where originals are still available and not horrendously expensive, by now I’d at least have a tidy collection of reproductions of the major military longarms of the era - French, English, Dutch, and American made.

Little did I know at the time that there are almost no reproductions of the major arms of the AWI era currently in commercial production! I was flummoxed at the time: what do you mean no one makes a commercial copy of a 1728 Charleville, or of any pattern Dutch musket, or even of a Long Land Bess? And what do you mean my only options are to: 1.) buy a somewhat inaccurate Italian gun and customize it; or 2.) buy an even less historically accurate Indian copy and customize it; or 3.) get in line for a couple years wait at TRS for parts and then find a builder on top of it and wait longer?

I appreciate that our hobby may not represent the largest market around, but I have to believe there’s significant untapped market demand here that a really good product could not only satisfy, but actually create new demand for. The topic gets covered ad nauseum in business books, but whether you’re Phil Knight or Steve Jobs, sometimes you need to put the product out first to stimulate the demand.

So kudos to Jim for taking this on. I suspect it will be more successful than some folks think. And put me down for 2, please. ;D

Jay

Offline Snowmoon

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2025, 04:39:55 AM »
Great, now I've got to consider hunting for another piece of English walnut...this is my happy face, trust me 😄

Fantastic news!
Take not armes vpő every light occaſyon, let not one fryend vpon a word or a tryfle violate another but let ech man zealouſly embrace fryendſhyp, & turne not famylyaritie into ſtrangnes, kyndnes into mallice, nor loue into hatred, noriſh not theſe ſtrange & vnnaturall Alterations. —George Silver

Offline Bigmon

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2025, 05:12:23 PM »
Here are a couple photos of an old Bess a friend of mine had.  His son may still have it.  I been trying to contact him to see if he had any interest in selling it?  I really don't know the exact model it is, only that it is early.  I once took it to Martin West, the director at Fort Ligonier and I remember him being very impressed with it?




Offline smart dog

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2025, 05:54:25 PM »
Hi Bigmon,
That is a pattern 1730 King's musket upgraded with a later lock with a pan bridle.  What is the date  on the lock?  I think it reads "Jordan" but I cannot tell for sure.  Many of the pattern 1730s were upgraded during production from 1740-1742.  It looks like someone filed the bottom of the pan bridle.  Normally it would be straight.

dave
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Offline Snowmoon

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2025, 07:57:07 PM »
Hi,
The pattern 1756 was the second British musket designed from the outset to have a steel rammer.  Consequently, it is slimmer than the previous long land muskets that mounted wooden rods.  I've measured quite a few and the width of the stock at the breech was always less than 2", in some cases as thin as 1.85".  The width of the wrist at the beginning of the comb is usually less than 1.75" so they taper a bit.  The earlier patterns also had more drop at heel and often are more comfortable as shooters for most folks.  The stocks were straighter after 1756 and drop at heel reduced from about 2.5" to less than 2".  Stocks are even straighter on the later short land muskets.  For example, I  picked out one of my tracings for a Tower marked pattern 1756 used by the 63rd regiment, possibly at Bunker Hill.   The drop at heel was only 1.75".  I picked out another tracing which was for a Dublin Castle marked pattern 1769 short land musket used by the 34th regiment and captured at Saratoga in 1777.  Drop at heel was only 1.625".   When I shouldered that shortland, it was really tough to get my cheek down on the stock.  Still it was a well balanced and beautiful gun.

dave

Very interesting information and I think a good explanation of why skewing earlier would be an excellent choice 😉

Regardless, knowing Mr. Kibler's work, I'll follow this project closely. Time for me to start thinking about a well-made bayonet and sling. Only the best will do.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2025, 08:44:14 PM by Snowmoon »
Take not armes vpő every light occaſyon, let not one fryend vpon a word or a tryfle violate another but let ech man zealouſly embrace fryendſhyp, & turne not famylyaritie into ſtrangnes, kyndnes into mallice, nor loue into hatred, noriſh not theſe ſtrange & vnnaturall Alterations. —George Silver

Offline Bigmon

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2025, 05:26:53 AM »
Sorry, but I cannot read the maker or date on the lock.  The photos are just not clear enough and when I enlarge them they get even fuzzier?
But that is an early one? Would it even be called a Bess?  You said King's Musket?
Thanks

Offline smart dog

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2025, 01:51:38 PM »
Hi,
The pattern 1730 was the first Brown Bess and it was issued from about 1730 to the early 1750s.  It was replaced by the pattern 1742 but was still issued to Provincial troops and soldiers serving in North America well into the 1750s.  I suspect your lock reads "Iordan" for Edward Jordan and the date is likely after 1740.  British ordnance and soldiers rarely called the musket "Brown Bess".  It was almost always referred to as the "King's pattern musket" with updated versions called "new" patterns compared with the "old" pattern. The 1730 was issued without extensive field testing and flaws in it showed up immediately.  The biggest issue was the trigger guard was too weak.  It was upgraded with new guards, new lock, steel rammer, etc all through its service life so surviving 1730s often show a lot of variation in components.  You can see strong Dutch influence in the musket.  That is because Andreas Dolep, a Dutch immigrant gunsmith working in London, had a strong influence on the design.  The initial prototypes from which King George I selected the official pattern were made by Lewis Barbar, a French immigrant gunmaker working in London.  He made a batch with 42" barrels mounted in brass, and a batch with 46" barrels mounted in iron.  King George, who was German, selected one of the long prototypes but wanted it mounted in brass.  That brass mounted gun became the 1730 King's pattern musket.  The weak trigger guard is because the iron mounted version would have been plenty strong but when the design was made from brass it was too weak.  The irony is that the iconic British  Brown Bess musket, symbol of British imperialism, was mostly designed by an immigrant  Dutchman, first made by an immigrant  Frenchman, and selected by an immigrant German king.  Oh those darned immigrants!!

dave     
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Bigmon

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2025, 11:26:08 PM »
Thanks for that information.  It is very interesting.  Would the fact that this one still retains the wooden rod mean it was not upgraded ?  Or did the newer steel rammer just work where the wooden one had been?
I guess what I'd like to know is if during the time of the F&I war, were wooden rammers still in use.  Or had they all been upgraded to iron, or probably just some of them?
Thanks again

Offline smart dog

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2025, 11:33:19 PM »
Hi,
The pattern 1730 and 1742 muskets were always issued with wooden rods but some were retrofitted with steel ramrods during their working lives. The refit usually involved putting an internal bushing in the forward pipe that reduced the inside diameter and then a rod retaining spring was riveted inside the rear pipe to prevent the rod from sliding out.  It was a weak and often unsatisfactory retrofit.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Mr Higgs Boson

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2025, 11:05:02 PM »
It might purely be the lighting, but the right side of the stock on the original 1756 looks slightly flat to my eye on the butt and in front of the lock, almost as if it might have been sanded down or refinished at some point. That might just be an illusion, just not sure if that might need to be accounted for in the CNC design.

Also wanted to thank Dave for the important points on the details. I don’t think anyone is questioning Jim’s credentials, just highlighting some of the particular details, like the “Tower” lock that the Bess purists would love to see on a reproduction of this quality.

Really excited about this project and appreciate that an original in outstanding condition was shared for the pattern.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2025, 04:09:45 PM »
I have already spread word to leadership and members in my Reenactment group ( the largest in North Carolina) of this project, as well as to friends.
It is welcome news and I am pretty sure that Jim has opened a treasure chest for both Living Historians who strive for more authenticity as well as for Kibler Longrifles (& Muskets 🫢)


Offline wvcruffler

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2025, 06:41:21 PM »
Boy is that walnut dark. D'ya suppose lampblack was used on the wood? Man is that ever gorgeous.

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2025, 07:04:43 PM »
This is quite exciting. I have wanted a Bess for a long time, but all the reproductions aren't great, and parts to build a proper one seem hard to come by or not of good quality.  Will you have English walnut available for stocks?

Offline lexington1

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2025, 12:36:08 AM »
Hi,
The pattern 1730 and 1742 muskets were always issued with wooden rods but some were retrofitted with steel ramrods during their working lives. The refit usually involved putting an internal bushing in the forward pipe that reduced the inside diameter and then a rod retaining spring was riveted inside the rear pipe to prevent the rod from sliding out.  It was a weak and often unsatisfactory retrofit.

dave

I have a 1756 carbine that was changed to a steel rammer simply by changing the upper pipe to one for a metal rod. It looks a little goofy with it's much larger pipe channel and lower pipes, and I thought it was a home project, but it turns out that a bunch of these 1756's were so altered. I also have a 1755 Marine/Militia musket that has a metal rod. It is certainly a home job as it has it original wooden pipes and the rod is severely bent in two spots to keep a friction fit in the pipes.

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2025, 05:29:48 AM »
Oh, and will bayonets be available too?  :)

Offline Daryl

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2025, 05:22:54 PM »
Didn't that early "Bess" use a plug bayonet?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2025, 10:17:55 PM »
Oh, and will bayonets be available too?  :)

I don't know for sure.  I'd like to not make them, but people have told me reenactors will demand them.  They'll not be the easiest things to make either.  In the end, I suspect we'll end up offering them.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2025, 03:38:11 AM »
Didn't that early "Bess" use a plug bayonet?

No.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2025, 10:52:26 PM »
Yeah. You'd definitely have to have some bayonets to go with these, either made in house, or sourced elsewhere and sold on your site.  A brown Bess without a bayonet is like a car with  only 3 wheels.  I have no practical reason to have one, but I definitely want a good Bess with a bayonet. What kind of wood will you have for them?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2025, 05:41:31 PM »
Tks, Dave.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline CharlesP

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2025, 12:16:27 AM »
Jim, as a very happy purchaser of a Colonial, Woodsrunner, and Fowler I am STOKED to see you are taking on this project!  May I humbly beg and beseech you to follow on with a Short Land Pattern musket as well?    Meanwhile, I've written Bree to put me down for two.  👍👍

The fowler kit you sent last month with the extra fancy walnut stock is amazing, not enough adjectives to describe it!  I will be sending the brass parts out to be engraved and start working on it soon. 

HUZZAH for your contributions to the muzzleloading world! 

Offline cordite

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2025, 09:17:24 PM »
I’m also super excited about this news.  Was very impressed with my woodsrunner kit and know Jim will do a super job. I tried explaining to my wife just how amazing it would be to have a quality long land pattern kings musket available to all of us. She didn’t seem very impressed…

By any measure this is right up there as one of the greatest firearms in history. Imagine being the primary government issued military weapon, of the world’s most powerful country, for 125 years with only minor updates.  French/Indian War, American revolution, peninsula war, Waterloo…. Yes, put me down for 2 as well.

Offline Leatherbark

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Re: Kibler Brown Bess
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2025, 12:34:58 PM »
I'll be waiting for all the deals on Pedersoli Besses when these are selling like hotcakes.  Nobody in my circle of shooters would know a Pedersoli from a Pepperoni anyway let alone a Kibler Bess.