reducing trigger pull with siler locks

[LRB]

  Trigger pull weights are a personal preference. The pull weight should be what one is comfortable with, and controls best. As far as a "bump" test, I don't see where that is relevant to safety. The gun should not be carried in the full cock position. I like no more than 1 1/2 lb pulls, and with set triggers, around 2 to 3 oz. I have no problems with those weights and use my set trigger when hunting, if there is time to set it. There is no set rule for trigger weight. One weight does not fit all, and I have never encountered a production lock whose sear spring was not grossly over powered, and was not improved by reducing the thickness. If for no other reason, reducing the sear spring reduces wear and noise when the lock is cocked. I will not say my weights are right, and yours wrong. I am saying my weights are right for me, and assume yours are right for you. As a young man I found light pulls worked best for me, and learned to tune locks and triggers  to suit my needs.  I have a friend who likes a 5 to 6 pound pull, and does very well with that. I don't like his triggers, and he cannot control mine, but neither of us is wrong in our choices, only different.

[sonny]

lrb..........yes you completely understand my thoughts.I also dislike heavy triggers for competition an general hunting deer.I am willing to bet that a good shooter would be a great shooter with a improved lighter/crisper trigger pull,bar none.liability is turning our gunsmiths into ,"good enough" mind set for insurance purposes,but i still believe if there were a lie detector test given about the best a gunsmith could do with trigger work,they would all fail due to our judicial system.I don't blame the gunsmith,as it would be a life altering set back ,if some jerk wanted the impossable to make up for his lack of abilities.But don't tell me sweet trigger work  cannot be done for those who earn the privelage to own an understand such beauty.....i guess the german's were right........so much is beauty wasted on those you cannot appreciate such beautiful things they encounter in life............I will find a gunsmith who will create such beauty for me..........i understand..........sonny

[jwh1947]

No doubt you are correct.  There are likely many so-called gunsmiths out there who will gladly continue to perform "adjustments" ad infinitum to a trigger and continue to bill the customer for services performed.  Just like alternative therapy, it's there because people want it and patronize it.  But that doesn't make it either right or safe.  I love a good argument, but I am not going to change my standards just because someone pokes me in the ribs.  If customers come to me with problems, I automatically assume that they think I can do better than they can themselves.  Subsequent professional decisions need to be guided by reason and experience, and, you are right, that includes specific awareness the growing volume of case law emerging on the subject; otherwise, why come to me?  Better to go see a shaman. JWH

[sonny]

obviously the "one who has traveled far for your wisdom, must  yet still travel further.........shaman"....Ha.....no rib poke intended..please don't feel you have been singled out...........just a tad bit more overspoken then needed on my question........sonny

[jwh1947]

What?  Me, overspoken? 

[California Kid]

The journey is long Grasshopper!

[Bill of the 45th]

Interesting discussion on tigger pull.  I would think that a 3 1/2 to 4 pound pull with a properly polished sear, and tumbler. should be enough, and that the next step would be two fold, and that you need to tune/strengthen your trigger finger, and second shoot more to get used to your gun.  They make those foam balls to help strengthen your hand, both for grip, and for finger strength.  It's an important part of the shooting equation that's forgotten a lot of the time.  Just my thought, and two pence worth.

Bill

[keweenaw]

LRB,

You obviously don't hunt anywhere where it's cold.  Up here in da UP of Michigan muzzleloader season is in December.  We've gone out some days when the temp was 10 below and come in when it got to 15 below.  And that's fahrenheit below and not the whimpy Canadian celsius below.  At those temperatures we're not shooting with a bare hand and a 1 1/2 lb. trigger pull would results in shots only vaguely in the direction of the deer. 

As for the bump test, safe is safe and unsafe is not.  Muzzles are going to get bumped against trees in swinging on a deer, the gun's going to slip in cold hands, etc.  And yes you can lighten pulls by thinning sear springs but you can achieve the same pull  THE CORRECT WAY by working on the sear nose and notch.  The Mantons and other classic English builders who made the best locks ever made, didn't use those really stiff springs because they hadn't thought about it. 

There may be the occasional lock where the working arm of the sear spring is too short and contacts the sear well behind the pivot.  In those case the solution to the resulting heavy pull is not to thin the spring but to replace it with one that contacts the sear as close to the pivot as possible while still allowing the sear to work.

Tom

[Artificer]

I think a longer trigger pull before release can be achieved through use of a deeper full cock notch or having the trigger pivot closer to the sear contact.  Either would give more creep or trigger travel before release.

I guess the point I am trying to make that any attempt to minimize trigger travel and trigger weight at the same time leads to a very sensitive trigger as far as accidental discharge is concerned.

I've never used a set trigger so am comfortable with pulls in the 4 lb range.

OK, Rich we are talking about the same thing, which is what I figured.
I can not agree more about not having a sensitive trigger.

I have used set triggers for target work, but never for hunting.  Since I'm so used to 4 3/4 lb NM triggers, I have no problems with not using a set trigger for hunting and like a 3 1/2 to 4 lb trigger on my rifles without set triggers. 

[LRB]

  Snyder, you are somewhat correct. The coldest I have hunted was 16°. Got a 6 point at about 40 yrds., and I set the trigger.  If you can't handle your gun, you need to do something about that. I can handle mine.
   Bill Knapp. You have given the very example I was talking about. You "THINK" a 4 1/2 to 5 lb pull should be enough. It is not even close for me. What you think does not work for me. What I like works for me. I don't tune my guns for someone else. I tune them for me, just as some people like a 6 lb rifle, when I would prefer an 8 or 9 lb gun.
    Bump test? That is BS. Is there a set poundage of bump that makes it safe or not safe? If not, I would call that very unscientific, and subject to ones own interpretation.  I test mine by a moderate but firm thumb push on the cock. If it doesn't slip with the sear spring being removed, it suits me fine. The spring has but one job, and that is to set the sear into the notch in a reliable and positive manner.  After that, it's work is done. The rest is geometry. You don't put your finger on the trigger, until the gun is shouldered, and your ready to fire. Then it is time to either set the trigger, or pull the trigger. If you're clumsy enough to bump the gun on a tree, then it sucks to be you, but if that happened, all you've done is to lose a shot, and the deer is likely in the next county after that, whether it goes off or not. You'll learn to be more careful next time. 99% of gun safety, is in your hands, and not in the gun. When I sit in a stand, waiting on a deer, freezing my a$$ off, my trigger finger is always protected, even if the rest of me isn't. I refer back to my original post. It is a matter of preference, and what works for you. Not necessarily someone else. When I build a rifle, I give the customer what he prefers. Not what I prefer.

[Artificer]

If customers come to me with problems, I automatically assume that they think I can do better than they can themselves.  Subsequent professional decisions need to be guided by reason and experience, and, you are right, that includes specific awareness the growing volume of case law emerging on the subject; otherwise, why come to me?  Better to go see a shaman. JWH

I could not agree more.  I was extremely fortunate to have learned about adjusting trigger pulls for NM shooters and how to tell what the person wants by how they describe the trigger pull and what's wrong with it now. 

I'll never forget the guy who handed me his original M1863 musket, then told me he wanted a trigger job that went no more than two ounces over the minimum three pound weight limit.  I handed the rifle right back to him and told him I could do that, but I wouldn't do that as such a light trigger would probably not last the entire National Shoot, and certainly not a full shooting season.  I told him I would go no lower than between 3 1/2 to 4 pounds, but with the "feel" of the trigger the way he wanted it.  That way, I was sure the job would last for at least an entire shooting season and NSSA shooters shoot a LOT of rounds each year.  Then he told me "his buddy had a gunsmith do a lighter trigger job on his musket."  In a polite voice, I suggested he go to his buddy's gunsmith.   

Well, he came back a day later after speaking with both his buddy and his buddy's gunsmith - who wouldn't work on it at the shoot.   They brought his buddy's rifle.  I felt the trigger pull and told them it was over 4 pounds.  They tried to argue until I pulled out my NRA trigger weights and picked up four pounds and swung it.  It actually picked up 4 1/2 pounds and swung the weights and would just barely pick up 4 3/4 pounds.  Then I told them that trigger pull weights and gravity don't lie.  Then I handed them a repro rifle I had just completed a trigger job on and they both liked the trigger pull much better than the buddy's gun.  I told them I could do at least as well as that, if not better, on an original gun as the parts are better.  Then the guy almost begged me to work the trigger for him.

If one goes to a professional to get trigger work done, the best thing is to try some triggers the professional did for others and/ or at ask around about the professional beforehand.  Most professionals want to give you a trigger job you will love, but if it can't be done due to safety or other technical reasons the good professionals are going to tell you that and why.

Gus

[Long Ears]

Not too many threads back I asked the same question about a hard trigger. You gentlemen set me straight with your knowlege of gun building and repair. i would like to say that those of you in the Gunsmithing business to continue with your rules on trigger weights and safety concerns. The courts have run so many of you out of business in my part of the country it is hard to find a Gunsmith let alone a good one. I have been a target shooter and hunter since childhood and I will agree trigger pull is extremely important but safety should always be first. There are reasons for minimum trigger weights in matches other than fairness. Please continue sharing your wealth of experience with the those of us that are here to learn. This was a good one as usual. Thanks, Bob

[sonny]

LRB....................you understand all of this!.........yes..........thank you......light,crisp,safe.........exactly...........sonny

[keweenaw]

The main goal of education, and the hardest part of educating, is not teaching, it's combating ignorance.

Tom

[LRB]

  So Snyder, I take it that if someone disagrees with you, they are automatically  too ignorant to think for themselves, and everyone should do only those things that you agree with. By the way, just exactly how many pounds is that safe bump poundage? Just in case I ever see the Snyder way of things, and wish to break the bonds of my ignorance. You never did say. You have a good day sir.
     

[flintman-tx]

Interesting discussion. Let's remember to keep it civil. Thanks

[Darkhorse]

Sonny, I learned the hard way trying to do what your doing to the sear spring. First off, I'd stay away from much stoning on the notch. It is way too easy to get the edge rounded a little or the geometry askew. Once this is done the rifle is unsafe with a light sear spring.  Smooth surfaces are essential but don't over do it.

Has your lock been polished? All sources of friction removed and the surfaces polished all nice and slick. A well tuned lock is part of the equation.

I like a light trigger also and I want a single trigger for hunting big game. During the winter I wear mittens with fingers exposed and a flap that covers them. In an instant I got my thumb and trigger finger exposed for the cock and shot.

I keep a few spare sear springs handy. When I'm adjusting trigger pull with the sear spring I always measure the spring thickness with calipers. That way I can judge the effect I'm having from experience. For instance, the thinner you go it takes less stock removal to decrease spring strength.
I do mine with a file to control heat not a grinder. All the sear springs I've worked were hard, but not file hard. I finish up by polishing all the file marks out of the spring.
My deer rifle comes in just under 2 pounds. Been that way for several years with no problems.
In fact, I find a single trigger set up this way is more accurate for me than a set trigger. Reason being the way the set trigger works. The front bar slams up and hits the sear and jars the rifle. Tuning can smooth things up but the physical reaction remains. The single trigger just pushes the sear smoothly so any potential movement of the barrel by the "Slam" is much reduced. Which translates to tighter groups out where the target is.

[LRB]

   Once the lock is well polished and tuned with reduced power in the sear spring, you also polish and fine tune the set triggers, and back the power off the triggers mainspring.  Done right there is no slam. Just a gentle, light bump. Just enough to be reliable. All this also makes the triggers and lock very much quieter in use while hunting. I have not yet had a deer detect the click of my set triggers being set on my FL, or Shiloh Sharps.

[sonny]

thanks all.....darkhorse.........i have a fordom grinder an slowley remove thickness to sear spring.The lock was sent away for untimate polish an fit.was it done correctly? you can drive yourself nuts with that one....I polish with the fordom rubber diamond impreg. tips..........smooth as a babies bottom..........love single triggers but also love crisp smooth light for hunting an all shooting.........like fine wine.......I wish i was capable of polishing my own lock parts to my specs,but would need somebody to show me.........I only need to be shown once........A lot of times when artists are doing a show an tell,thay go too fast an you don't get hands on experience........thanks for advice.........sonny