Flint hanging up

[Woodstock]

Got a new Chambers large Siler lock. The flint is hanging up at the lower ¾ of the frizzen. I tried bevel up and bevel down on the flint. Polished up the top of the Frizzen spring and the bottom of the frizzen where it travels on the spring and the frizzen face, all to a mirror finish. The flint is like a razor and sits as square against the frizzen as I can get it. I also tried 2 other flints. They all hang up in the same place. I have checked all I know to check. I see no drag marks on the stock from the lock inlay where it would impede the function of the lock in anyway. I have looked for interference all through the lock (every part) and cannot see anything scrubbing or rubbing that could be a problem.  Once it hangs up, I can put it at ½ cock and the frizzen stays in place. With light pressure I can flip the frizzen all the way open with very little effort. Could it be that the frizzen face needs to be hardened? I am getting some sparks but not a shower of them. There are some small gouges where the flint stops. I have sanded and polished them out about three different times and each time it hangs up in the same place.  This has been one of those days!!!!

[coutios]

Have you tried cycling the lock outside of the rifle?? Same thing??? Does it raise a burr when the frizzen stalls?? Put a little grease on the frizzen spring where the foot contacts??
Looking for a little more info...

Regards
Dave

[Woodstock]

Yes, cycled in and out of the lock and yes, it does raise a burr. Greased it up pretty good. Wife is screaming dinner is ready. Be right back. 

[rich pierce]

Tried a longer flint yet or moving it forward in the jaws?  That may help but it still shouldn't happen.

Frizzen not hard enough (check with a new file), frizzen timing off (check when it flips open moving it by hand with the cock at half cock), frizzen spring too strong relative to mainspring) are my 3 suggestions.

[Woodstock]

I have moved the flints every way imaginable. To the back resting against the screw and to the front as far as it would go and still stay in place. The frizzen is real close to tripping all the way open. If the flint did not hang up, I think it would work as it should. I checked it with a (fairly) new file. It skated across the front with barley any scratches. We share the same thoughts on the frizzen spring being to strong. If the frizzen spring is to strong, what to do? I could file off the bottom of the frizzen just a bit and possibly take a little off the spring where the frizzen rides on it but I am not sure that would be enough. I have no experience in working with springs but would do whatever it takes; it in a heartbeat, if I thought it would solve the problem. Like I said, it has been one of those days. Started this morning at 6:00 AM and gave up at 6:00 PM. I am probably looking right at the problem and can’t see it.  ???I guess I am the only one that has ever been through this LOL. It might be best if I moved on to something else for a while. Got some 1911 grips past due. @#&^, those as just as aggravating. YA GOTA LOVE IT!!  Thanks for the help. 

[Birddog6]

Should be using a standard 3/4 flint, which means 3/4 wide & 7/8 long. Move the flint out a tad or try a thicker leather as could need to be raised a tad, as sounds like the flint is hitting too low.  Or if the flint has a hump it could be tipping down on front when you clamp it in & that will cause them to dig in..

I wouldn't work on it, I would send it back if it's not right.  If it came from Chambers, he will make it right & send it right back. They are Good people to deal with.  

[KentSmith]

My thoughts exactly.  Send it to Mr. Chambers or call for the answer to your problem and suggestions about what to do.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

One of the cool things about working on muzzleloaders is the learning curve.  If you send it back, you'll never learn anything.
Here's what I'd do.  I'm thinking that the timing of the frizzen is out, and that this may be caused by a frizzen spring that is not balanced with the power of the mainspring.  Put the cock at half bent, and close the frizzen onto the pan.  Raise the frizzen slowly and watch where it flips open under the tension of the frizzen spring.  The frizzen should snap open by itself when the back bottom edge reaches about 3/8" off the pan.  If it does not, and the toe of the frizzen is polished as well as the top of the frizzen spring's leaf where the contact is made, a couple of things can be done to improve it.  Reduce the thickness of the working leaf of the frizzen spring by filing it thinner over it's whole length, and then re-polish it.  Do it a little at a time, returning the frizzen spring to the lock for testing, each time you make a change.  It may take a number of tries, so be patient and keep at it.  When the frizzen spring is balanced in power with the power of the mainspring, the lock should work much better.
Experimenting with Siler locks to eliminate that problem, and/or just tuning to improve the lock's speed and or function, I have also removed the frizzen spring, and heated the tip red and bent in downward just a little, right at the point where the frizzen should trip over and open by itself.  This is a little trickier, and you need red heat, so the spring must be altered, re-polished, hardened and tempered each time you make an adjustment.  But I have radically improved lock time and removed frustration doing this, and learned a whole bunch of stuff along the way.  Tuning flintlocks is a lot of fun, and making it better is very satisfying.

[Woodstock]

I think you may have figured it out Birddog. I am using English flints fitting your dimensions. I took it out and had a look. There is a hump that cast the stone downward a bit. The same with the other two I have. Now it makes since.  Even though it is casting in a downward (seemingly circular motion) it needs to remain parallel or flat with the apparatus it is striking. In other words, scrape it not cut it. I think I got it. (I think). I will give it a try and make the adjustments in the morning. If I look at it anymore today it may wind up as a banger on a wind chime. Before I bought the lock I did a lot of checking. Mr. Chambers and the gang have an excellent reputation for a quality product. I am a novice at this and kind of figured it was me and not the product. Wanted to be sure and cross all avenues before sending anything back. I will let you know how it turns out.
Again, many thanks.

[Woodstock]

Mr. Taylor,

Your help arrived as I was typing my reply in regards to the flints. This will give me another avenue to explore in the event the reconfiguration of the flints does not work. I do feel that the frizzen spring is a bit stout. I have always taken pride in the ability to fix just about anything, do it right and make it work. To you point, the muzzleloaders God has blessed us with, has blessed me with more trials and tribulations LOL. I have fixed complex mechanical failures but have never, never faced such a stressful, frustrating, aggravating, gratifying, wonderful and fulfilling experience as building a Rock Basher from purdy much scratch. It has been a hoot thanks to you guys and the forum. In hopes I will get her done before my day arrives, I remain thankfully yours,

Patrick     

[Acer Saccharum]

ONe thing I notice when working with flintlocks is that a lock may have a preference for a particular kind of flint. I have English, French, and Missouri Whites (from Rich Pierce) on hand, and try each one to see which sparks the best for a particular lock.

I would follow Taylor's advice, and see where the frizzen flips open. We'd like to hear back on that.

One more thing is that the firzzen may be too soft. It's not impossible to happen. When you say the flint stops and leaves a ridge, AND not a shower of sparks, I am thinking the steel may be too soft. Try different flint types (FR, Eng,Pierce) before you play with the hardness.

I once had a lock(still do) where the flint would stop dead on the frizzen. It would make no spark at all. Pieces of flint would go flying all over the place. This is because the steel was too soft. Your lock is not this severe, but what you say about stopping and lack of spark raises an eyebrow.

Tom

[northmn]

I have a Siler lock kit with instructions that say to harden the frizzen by heating to a very red state (almost orange and non-magnetic)  and quenching in oil.  ATF works good and 2 quarts works better.  They recommend at least 2 propane torches if you do not have anything hotter. Hold it on the other side of the screw hole so as not to heatsink the frizzen.  Then temper by heating in a preheated oven at 350 for an hour (use an oven thermometer as the setting mean little).  I have also heated the gooseneck up on a few locks and bent the angle of hit a little higher to get a better opening.  Does not take much.  The flint should point into the forward part of the pan when fully down.  Also done all the other suggestions.  I wonder who is making these locks as this is the second one I have heard about recently.  Locks from Chambers come ready to go as I have heard, some other distributers have others assemble them.

DP

[Roger Fisher]

I have moved the flints every way imaginable. To the back resting against the screw and to the front as far as it would go and still stay in place. The frizzen is real close to tripping all the way open. If the flint did not hang up, I think it would work as it should. I checked it with a (fairly) new file. It skated across the front with barley any scratches. We share the same thoughts on the frizzen spring being to strong. If the frizzen spring is to strong, what to do? I could file off the bottom of the frizzen just a bit and possibly take a little off the spring where the frizzen rides on it but I am not sure that would be enough. I have no experience in working with springs but would do whatever it takes; it in a heartbeat, if I thought it would solve the problem. Like I said, it has been one of those days. Started this morning at 6:00 AM and gave up at 6:00 PM. I am probably looking right at the problem and can’t see it.  ???I guess I am the only one that has ever been through this LOL. It might be best if I moved on to something else for a while. Got some 1911 grips past due. @#&^, those as just as aggravating. YA GOTA LOVE IT!!  Thanks for the help. 

Suggest, after all your options are expired as you describe, give good ol Jim a call and I would bet the farm he or Barbie gal will set you straight,.   Maybe even send the lock back for a looksee and fix....

Btw I saw that bit abt your wife screaming that supper is/was ready hilarious,,,,!  I get that here also..

[Woodstock]

It worked!!
 I knocked the hump off the flint and put on a thicker piece of leather. This put the flint touching the frizzen face at ½ cock. Barely touching but enough to cause some concerns. I can fix that. I put a small charge in the pan, closed the frizzen, pulled the trigger and it went POOF the first time. Yes I am a happy camper!! Very few sparks but enough I guess. It is amazing to me how temperamental these things are. How in the world did they figure this stuff out back in the day?  Like brain tanning hide. How in the world did someone come up with that?
Many thanks for helping with this one. I would have been in a straight jacket by lunchtime today if not for the help.
 
Hey Rodger, I try and avoid calling the Chambers. Every time Barbie gets on the phone I wind up spending too much money!! I cannot resist.

[Roger Fisher]

It worked!!
 I knocked the hump off the flint and put on a thicker piece of leather. This put the flint touching the frizzen face at ½ cock. Barely touching but enough to cause some concerns. I can fix that. I put a small charge in the pan, closed the frizzen, pulled the trigger and it went POOF the first time. Yes I am a happy camper!! Very few sparks but enough I guess. It is amazing to me how temperamental these things are. How in the world did they figure this stuff out back in the day?  Like brain tanning hide. How in the world did someone come up with that?
Many thanks for helping with this one. I would have been in a straight jacket by lunchtime today if not for the help.
 
Hey Rodger, I try and avoid calling the Chambers. Every time Barbie gets on the phone I wind up spending too much money!! I cannot resist.

Just an added thought for what it's worth......   You mentioned 'hump' ( mean on the flint!!)  I wonder if that hump caused said flint to tip downward that the flint hit the frizzen tooooo low and didn't have the omph to flip the thingee? And simply jammed against the lower part of the friz?   Like I said for what its worth

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Woodstock,

It sounds like you got it figured out so this is probably not an issue, BUT, I have had problems I didn't see at first with a flint rubbing against the barrel and also with a the corner of the frizzen/panlid rubbing against the barrel. (caused by lightly reduced bolster thickness) Check the barrel...but sometimes it is so slight you may not even see wear marks.

[Birddog6]

I buy my flints in bulk & the first thing I do is take all the humped back ones out, out them in a padded vice & I grind all the humps down flat.  This eliminates this flint tipping down syndrome.  I use a diamond embedded disk on a arbor or a Mizzy wheel.

Note: Word of Caution  If you do this have a vaccume on the discharge immediately after the wheel you are grinding with, and a good respirator, and safety glasses.  You don't want to breathe this dust from the flint or the wheel.

[Pete G.]

Are you cycling the lock without firing the gun?
I ask this because I have a Chambers Golden Age that does the same thing, but only when cycling the lock without a charge in the barrel. It has NEVER done this on firing the rifle; not even once. It sort of bugs me, but in reality it is not a problem. I figured it would get better as the lock had more time put on it, and it doesn't seem to do it quite as often as before, but still after two years and thosands of shots, it has performed flawlessly and gives very long flint life. Perhaps the jet from the vent or maybe a little pressure from the prime, or maybe even the recoil all have something to do with it.
Your lock may have the same thing going on.
Although totally against and engineer's nature I have so far resisted the urge to tinker and just keep the frizzen toe and pivot clean and well lubed.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Usually if it ain't broke I just keep fixing it until it is.

[rich pierce]

Locks should not be so finicky that a precise size and shape flint is required, or perfect positioning of the flint, or thickness of the leather, etc.  I'd still do some tuning so it will take a wider range of flints and fire regularly.

[Woodstock]

Exactly Mr. Roger,
The hump was on the flint. Something I would have never thought of. The flint was cutting instead of striking. Once I knocked off the hump, put the new thicker leather on, it changed the angle of the striking and worked like a charm. I am still tempted to try hardening the frizzen. My darling wife bought me an Oxygen Acetylene set up for Christmas and I have some kasenit sitting around somewhere. As Mr. Taylor says, you will never learn unless you try it first.
Even though it worked real well on the test, not enough sparks to suit me. (Got a bad case of tinkeridous) I do not want to level down on a buck of a lifetime to step out and all I get it a CLOCK. In this case, it could be a bear of a life time. Got a friend of mine setting up a bear hunt for next year. I am planning on taking the rock basher and nothing else. What could be more gratifying than building your on rifle and taking a bear with it or any other big game animal for that matter? I have done that with a Longbow I built (with the help of a neighbor Boyer.)   

[jwh1947]

Not surprised that your solution came out that way.  On a new Chambers lock, I would always assume a bad flint or flint set-up.  My best luck has been with those grey English flints that Vernon used to sell.  Proper size is necessary and sometimes one just won't seem to function perfectly.  After readjusting and playing with the leather, if you are not satisfied, just toss the flint and try another, and lubricate lock,  before considering the lock defective.  I've found this to work, never needing to send one of them back.  Wayne

[J.D.]

I am still tempted to try hardening the frizzen. My darling wife bought me an Oxygen Acetylene set up for Christmas and I have some kasenit sitting around somewhere. As Mr. Taylor says, you will never learn unless you try it first.
Even though it worked real well on the test, not enough sparks to suit me. (Got a bad case of tinkeridous)

If you hit that frizzen with Kasnit, Better quench it in automatic transsmission fluid, as opposed to water. Siler frizzens are made of through hardening 1095 steel. A water quench will crack that frizzen.

In fact, to add a little carbon to the surface of the steel, all ya gotta do is heat the frizzen with a carburizing flame for 15 minutes, or so, then quench in oil heated to 130 degrees.

God bless

[Woodstock]

J.D thanks for the heads up. I downloaded the  instrcutions from I think the Chambers web site on how to use the Kasenit to harden a lock. I will try your suggestion first and see how it comes out if I decide to go that route. Still have long way to go in getting it shoot- able. I got most all if the scary stuff out of the way like the drilling for the lock bolts and of the tang screw into the trigger plate (I missed by ½ of an 8x32)  and installing the barrel lugs. I still have to pin the lugs and the ramrod pipes. Not looking forward to that at all. Once that is done I can get onto the fun stuff like finishing it out and trying my hand at engraving and carving.
Speaking of which, do you pin the ramrod pipes and the lugs together? I hope so. That is the way I have it laid out. The lugs are in. I can tap them one way or the other so they will miss the pipe pinning thingamajigs.

[t.caster]

Speaking of which, do you pin the ramrod pipes and the lugs together? I hope so. That is the way I have it laid out. The lugs are in. I can tap them one way or the other so they will miss the pipe pinning thingamajigs.

WHAT?!? I never do it that way! That's taking too much wood out in one spot, me thinks!

[Woodstock]

Please tell me I can still do it that way!!!! I kinda thought I would run into problems. I was trying to figure out how not to drill and pin so many holes. I would rather have only three holes in the stock instead of 6. But that is the thinking of a green rookie that makes no claim he knows what he is doing.