roundball/slug transition question

[The other DWS]

as a result of the 200 yd roundball match discussion I got to wondering about the when/where/how of the transition from patched roundballs to various conical slugs occurred.   the whole evolution of arms development interests me and this is one aspect I've never gotten a good handle on.

My understanding is that if one needed more "knock-down power"  for larger game you needed more powder, but that unless you made the barrel longer and longer and longer you wound up burning it in the open air--or not burning it at all.  So they went to larger bore/ball diameter.    I'm assuming this was with the "roundball (slower) twists".

[BrownBear]

I've formed the strong impression that the big push happened in the period between the "end" of the Rocky Mountain fur trade era around 1840 or so, and the big switch to cartridges during and after the Civil War in the 1860's.  That corresponds to the onset of the large scale commercial buffalo hunting, in which longer range with adequate killing power paid bonus points over roundballs, whether larger or smaller.   It would have been a brief period, because the faster rate of fire with cartridge guns along with the range and power of elongate bullets would have been the hammer and nail for the coffin of muzzleloaders on buffalo shoots.

[The other DWS]

I know that the european military were looking at expanding base conical slugs (resulting in the minie'-type bullets) for rifled muskets fairly early in the 19th century but more to avoid fouling related issues that anything else.

It might be interesting to some how study and graph bore diameter, twist rate, and length over time.

bore length by itself CAN be indicative, but it also can simply be a matter of convenience in weapon handling requirements---- ie, long barrels for bayonet reach as well as better powder burn

[Daryl]

The switch was a straight military move in the 1840's to extend the killing/wounding range of the weapons. It started with the Minnie bullets just prior to the civil war according to the information I have at hand.  I believe the first military muzzleloading rifles built specifically for bullets were 72" twist, speeded up to 48" in the later models of the minnie rifles, still during the civil war. The rifling designed for them was always of progressive depth in the .58 and .69 calibres.  The .58 calibre rifles were born with the change from round ball to minnies. Until the minnie, all rifles were round ball guns, according to that same info. The military simply issued minnie 'balls' for those .54 cal. rifles in use.  After the minnie balls were confirmed in the US military, all .69 muskets of suitable barrel thickness were returned for rifling for use with minnie balls.

After the military switch, elongated bullets started to be experimented with in sporting rifles, mostly target guns as to get accuracy, the slugs had to be very close to bore size and thus were difficult to load due to fouling - frequent cleaning was manditory & round ball guns continued to be used for a long time by hunters long after the military swtich.

200 yards was well within the normal military shooting and hunting range of a round ball in the plains and mountains.  Their feelings were that anything over 300 was stretching the ball's effective range.

[The other DWS]

at what point were the smoothbores re-rifled for slug use and when did actual purpose-rifled barrels replace the re-rifled smoothbore muskets.

as I best recall the British Baker rifle equipped Napoleonic-war era units were issued a tight fitting ball and patch for precision work and also smaller diameter paper cartridges for fast high volume unit mass fire.

of course military usage is only loosely correlated to civilian use anyway though if I am remembering it correctly some of the American Civil war "sniper" units started the war with long-range civilian heavy-weight slug or "picket-ball" target rifles.

[northmn]

It was about the mid 1800's when a variety of researchers for the military studied the bullets.  Some of the names such as Minnie, a Frenchman, stay with us as does the Pickett bullet.  that was the time of discoveries of the 3-1 ratios, where a bullet should be 3X as long as its diameter.  The Minnie was the first practical military slug because it could be loaded easiest and fastest.  They started out with a plug in the base and were found to work as well without one.  The Minnie bullet revolutionized warfare about as much as smokeless powder did around the late 1800's.  The Civil war was said to be so bloody because of the use of Napoleaonic tactics against rifles.  There were also patched slugs and mechanical slugs developed from this research as well as the rather strange single shot Breech loading carbines used during the Civil war.  If one reads Ned Roberts book, which I did many years ago, he talks of the Billinghurst doubles used for hunting bear which used heavy 45 cal bullets.  some Hawkens were made with rifling to take bullets.  Patched roundball rifles were still built well into the cartridge era, up to the 1880's, however, such that one cannot take a calender and say that on June 30 1854 we all switched to slug use for instance.  I remember seeing a picture of Hickok posing with a few others with a hodgepodge of rifles inluding a Tennessee ML and a 1873 Winchester.  With BP a slug generally does not get driven as fast at the muzzle as a round ball but it retains velocity so much better that they have a higher retained velocity at longer ranges.  The military liked them for increased ranges that hunters would not appreciate. 

DP

[Daryl]

at what point were the smoothbores re-rifled for slug use and when did actual purpose-rifled barrels replace the re-rifled smoothbore muskets.

 
of course military usage is only loosely correlated to civilian use anyway though if I am remembering it correctly some of the American Civil war "sniper" units started the war with long-range civilian heavy-weight slug or "picket-ball" target rifles.

The first muskets to be returned for rifling were the percussion m1842's which were the last of the .69 cal muskets.  After that, I think they went all the way back to doing the 1819's for the earliest as being suitably barreled. Some US company officers preferred the rifled .69s with their 730gr. Minnies as they were said to be more accurate than the .58's or .54's.  Many .54's were bored and re-rifled in .58 cal. as well.  Some weren't.   The act of rifling of the suitable muskets mostly happened just after the Civil War, I think. I understand this is where the name Rifled Musket came from.  No .58's were Rifled Muskets as the States, never had a .58 Cal. Musket.  They were always rifles, as were the .54's except for pistols, of course.

Picket rifles were popular with some people for hunting and target use, but were very difficult to load accurately without a special muzzle starting tool. The picket rifle would also shoot round balls.  I think the heavy 'bench guns' used by some snipers in the Civil War ie: Berdan's Sharpshooters and others, (other than their issue Sharps) were used with long heavy bullets, not  the short odd shaped picket bullets.  The 'picket' added a bit of range, but not a whole lot of useable hunting range to the round ball as it was quite light compared to the longer, more specialized paper patched slugs.

[Longknife]

"The first real improvment over the round ball in our American rifles, known as the "sugar loaf" or "picket" bullet was designed by some unknown rifleman about 1835."---------- "Accuracy range was increased from about 30 rods to 40, 60 or 80 according to the bore, or caliber of the rifle"----------"In 1848 when John Chapman published "THE IMPROVED AMERICAN RIFLE" all the expert marksmen used rifles especialy especially made for this type of bullet."---- " THE MUZZLE-LOADING CAPLOCK RIFLE" by Roberts.

As for your inquirey about more "knock down power", yes a larger bore/ ball with an appropriate charge of powder is usually necessary to take larger game but it does not have the same "knock down" power such as the modern high velocity rounds. The high velocity rounds rely on speed and bullet expansion to destroy internal organs. A round ball should be propelled with enough velocity to pass through the intended game and punch two holes (in and out) in it to bleed out quickly.....Ed

[northmn]

The Confederates imported a few Enfields from England and were trying to win the English over to their side as allies.  Another "sniper" rifle was the English Whitworth with which some pretty dramatic claims were made.  The 58 Civil War Springfield musket was referred to as a rifled musket.  It seems that in the States the bullets started to take over from the round ball after the Civil War.  The Sharps breechloader was popular with Generals like Nathan Bedford Forrest (he "procured" a few of them).  Their were other carbines that used slugs, we had the development of the 44 Henry rim fire and the Spencer, as well as the Rifled Muskets.  More than a few seemed to make the civilian market. If one considers the 44-40 which by todays standards is not much of a rifle cartridge, and compare it to a 45 muzzle loader with round ball you see a less powerful load up close with the 44-40, but a more powerful hit at longer range, although nothing to brag about.  The 45 MLs shooting slugs, like the Whitworth,  generally shot bullets of nearly 500 grains.  The Whitworth, I believe, had octagonal rifling and a special mechanically fitted bullet.   English doubles were also starting to show up on the Western scene carried by English sportsmen.  If one looks what one sees with percussion ignition and slugs is the evolution to breech loading cartridge guns.   While there were flintlock breechloaders it seemed to take the percussion ignition to make them more practical. When the US rifle team defeated the Irish at Creedmore, we used Sharps against their muzzleloaders for long range shooting and only beat them by one shot, the first year.  The second year we used Rolling blocks and defeated them again and were not invited back.

DP

[Daryl]

The Irish/American match held the second time had an extra match with no wiping with interesting results. All of the Irish Rigby muzzleloaders posted scores higher than the highest US score, according to the books - probably Roberts, but I haven't read it in 25 years - memory's thin, you know.
The US teams used Ballards, Sharps and Rolling Blocks by the second match, as I understand the arms used.  The hodgepodge-quickly-put-together team of the US did very well the first year in any event.  By the second year, special rifles were made for them, of better shooting capabilities.

The Whitworths had hexagonal rifling as did the paper patched bullets they shot although they were hardened.

There was a flood of weak single shot actions surfaced right around and after the civil war. Many were rim fires, some, like the 1868 .50/70, had an inside primed centre fire case. The downfall of most of those (& of Custer's .45/70's) was the copper cases.  In Custer's 'case', brass ctgs. were on the market, but the Army didn't want to pay extra for them.

Y'all come up here for our shoot - we'll share the prizes - if you can win.

[northmn]

I would love to come up there and shoot but I still have to work and would have trouble going that far.  As to a match where swabbing between shots would be a factor, it is impossible to load a ML without some form of swabbing as the loading process swabs.  Some of the large bore rimfires also failed because they held too much priming and tended to burst as compared to our modern 22.  Also reloadibility was important to the buffalo runners.  Transitions tend to be slower than some imagine.  Muzzle loading shotguns were still made and popular in the 1870's as they could be loaded for changing conditions in the field, and did not require any reloading the night before. Some still favored them over cartridge guns. Somewhere I read the comment that the Natives liked muzzleloading rifles because they could load according to their dwindling powder supply before they could contact a trader.  Southern rifles were used into the 1900's I believe.  Shot towers appeared in the early 1800's and produced rifle ball, which was still likely more economical than bullets.  I often wonder if gauge was not being used so much back then as you paid the same for a pound of ball and just got fewere for bigger bores.  

DP

[Daryl]

Could be, about the price per pound, etc.

About shooting a ML with a grooved lubricated bullet, I know from experience with my 38" twist Bauska barrel, that I could shoot unlimited shots with MOA accuracy at 100 yards, with no loss in accuracy and no fouling problems. At that time, I was using American Deadshot powder, clean and seemingly 'moist' burning.  At that time, as well, I was using a 410gr. mechanically fitted bullet that went almsot to the bottoms of the grooves and pretty much pushed the fouling that was there, down onto the powder when loaded.

  I don't doubt for a minute that the Irish, with access to the best powders of the day, did exactly as Roberts reported - as he says they did not clean their bores between shots, but rather shot 'dirty'.

[northmn]

When you get into the accuracy level we are talking about, I am reminded of the 38-55.  It will no way hold 55 grains of black, more like 45 with a bullet seated but the designation came because it was developed for Schutzen. Some loaded the case with a wad at the end and muzzleloaded the bullet as they still felt muzzleloaded bullets to be more accurate, others used a plug to insert the bullet into the bore where the case full of powder could be inserted.  It then held 55 grains of powder.  Some still load that way in Schutzan BP matches.  But whether using a ML or a breech loader, loading a slug took more time, probably more than a patched round ball to get that accuracy.  Also most use false muzzles and other aids to get them going.  Funny thing is that slug shooters seem to used paper as compared to the cloth of roundball.

DP

[doug]

     the mini ball was preceded by a few years by the system Delvigne and the system Thouvenin (carabine a tige).  The first was a small diameter powder chamber and the the slug was pounded against the shoulder to expand it.  The carabine a tige was more or less the same thing except that there was a post at the bottom of the barrel to pound the slug against. (instead of the narrow powder chamber)
     The conversion of smooth muskets in Britain was the P51 which was a P42 with rifling more or less.  P42 was a slight upgrade (snail or bolster is slightly different) from the P39 enfield which was a brown bess converted to percussion.

cheers Doug

[The other DWS]

"Some still load that way in Schutzan BP matches. "   At current smokeless schuetzen matches as well.  (see ASSRA dot com)   we just had a lengthy discussion there over the muzzle-loading breechloader thing.   the basic conclusion was that the M/L was used in a transition role. they used precision false muzzles and fitted plunger short starters.  however it was a relatively slow and cumbersome procedure.
  They were firing a wide range of offhand matches up to and including hundred shot matches.  The physical wear and tear led to smaller bore rifles which were much more difficult to load for accuracy with BP.
(Few modern BP schuetzen shooters who are serious competitors use anything smaller than 38 cal with any success.)
   However as smokeless powder improved and barrels fouling became less of an issue (and duplex loading of BP) they found that mechanically seating the bullet ahead of the case with any of several tools  then inserting a charged case gave maximum accuracy with premium custom made gain twist barrels.

[Daryl]

Which brings to the late 1890's on into the 20th century - although, witness Alvin York's 'arena of shooting in the early 1900's [and before, of course]' still using patched round balls fro hunting and shooting 'chunk' matches for meat and money prizes.

[northmn]

The modern bolt action rifle by civilian use is relatively a modern thing.  In Yorks day he would have been competing against lever actions and singleshots like the rolling block. Maybe a few military surplus Krags.  Back then a rifle that grouped 4" at 100 yards would have been a pretty good one.  Even today against modern rifles, those of us shooting round ball loads out of a ML can surprise modern shooters.  I won a turkey one day at 100 yards with a 58 flinter against scoped bolt actions.

DP

[Daryl]

Back in the 70's, I used my .50 cal. muzzleloader in the annual turkey shoot at the Barnet range in Burnaby, BC over 3 years. All shooting was offhand at balloons stapled to the 10 yard rail.  The modern gun shooters were all the guys I shot position and prone with in competition - team members actually, for the many postal matches we competed in with the DCRA and BCRA. They all used their match rifles, .222's through .308's, with 12X to 20X scopes.  There was a 3 turkey limit per shooter.  One of them, an olympic shooter every year won the first 3, then I'd take the next three, using my Bauska barreled, reconfigured TC. The year Taylor joined us for the event, he took the third set of three, which was rather upsetting for one of the .222 shooters - HA! - what fun! The rest knew they'd have a chance on splitting the rest of the turkeys after Bob Cheny, myself & Taylor were finished shooting. Taylor's last turkey ended up in a shootoff of around 4 or 5 shots before the other guy missed a target, winning the bird for Taylor.  Man- that guy had worked himself up into a lather by the end of it. HA! still makes me laugh.