ALR Member Ribbon Winners at Kempton

[2 shots]

Hi Dave, im surprised they allow the Kibler kits. Might it be because of the low amount of entries?? table sure was  not as full as it used to be, thats for sure.

[whetrock]

Low numbers is not all bad news. If the competition gets down low enough, even I might win something! 

[TommyG]

Hi Guys, First, I would like to apologize if I didn't recognize all who won ribbons.  We had Mike announce it at the beginning of the rifle awards to come see me after for pictures, but I'm thinking not everyone heard it.  So, please post some of your own pics, guns or accoutrements, so we can all celebrate the effort and great work you guys have done.
As far as the number of guns, yes it was a bit light for sure, I think last year there were close to 20.  It does seem to fluctuate from year to year.  There were definitely more in the Dixons days, hopefully we can generate more interest moving forward. 
What I can say is the work I'm seeing from some of our younger builders is really outstanding... Keep 'em coming!!!!

[smart dog]

Hi Whetrock,
Conformation means the gun looks like what it purports to be.  If it was a Lehigh Valley rifle, good conformation means it looks like a Lehigh. 

The judging was originally meant to be an opportunity to compare work in various classes of experience and skill and to have the judges critique them to provide useful feed back to the makers.  It was mostly to be educational rather than a competition.  But all juried and judged events ultimately become competitions whether overtly or implied. Both of my students, Josh who is blind, and Maria have won ribbons at the Fair.  Maria won ribbons last year as well for her first gun.  I told both of them never build with the Fair in mind.  Build what you want and do the best you can but don't be afraid to enter the work if you have the opportunity. You will learn something either from the judges or more likely from observing the other good work.  I've won many blue ribbons in both Dixon's and the Kempton Fair including 2 best of shows and 2 best of Master's class.  However, I never built a single gun with the Fair in mind, ever.  I always entered them as an afterthought after arriving at the Fair to just see how they would do and get feed back from the judges.  In fact, all of them had been shot and used before they were ever entered so they had scratches and dents. So folks, don't be afraid to enter work at the Fair.  You will learn something useful either from the judges or your colleagues and from a marketing perspective,  a ribbon on your gun from the Fair just might allow you to get a higher price for your gun if for sale.   

dave

[Jakob]

Congrats to all!

[mountainman]

Paul Allison told me that when he was a judge back in the Dixon days they would have between 90 to a 100 rifles for the competition. I'm not exactly sure what is happening but this year was the lowest entry that I have ever seen it, only 17 were entered.
The attraction or the main drive for coming to the gunmakers fair was for the competition. I hear some people say they believe it's the economy, while that may be true, I believe something else is happening, I believe what is happening is that they are losing interest for whatever reason it may be.
In the accoutrements competition they have a junior entry, but there was no junior that entered.
It's sad to see this happening!
Wishing it would completely turn around like it used to be.

[Osprey]

I'm not sure I agree the competition was always the main reason for attending the fair.  Most of our guys always went because it was THE place to stock up on parts for building a rifle, but now it seems like more builders with finished stuff than suppliers.  I can remember four different wood dealers, but now lucky if there are a couple dozen sticks of wood scattered through the halls and that's really something you want to have a selection to look at.  Always had several big suppliers, Tip Curtis and Stonewall Creek come to mind, that had big selections of different barrels and locks and small parts.  I mean you can still search out the parts to build a gun, but not like it used to be. 

[tunadawg]

I too missed the photo announcement. I entered a gun, got third and second for conformation. I only entered it for the judges to pick apart and let me know where I went wrong and where I need/how to improve. Told me some things I never would have thought of, but the straight edge came out as soon as I got home to check my current build (lol).

[mountainman]

One odd and I thought dissapointing thing (not that it affected my gun by any means) was that they didn't award a Best of Show for rifles.  ?  I understand some of the awards that would be what a person would of liked like the Hjusa, but it's kind of in the title of the awards Best of Show.  Take the rifles on the table and pick one.  I think Rich's point was at play here, that Hawken in the Masters class shoulda won that, especially from the way the judges spoke of it, but it wasn't an eastern PA gun.

I would have thought the same way, the best, or the best gun liked by the judges that was entered out of all the other great guns that were entered, and if it met the criteria should have gotten a best of show, but to my understanding even though I never seen it happen except the last 2 years, I was told that they didn't always hand out a best of show even back in the Dixon Day's.

[Chris Evrard]

Congrats to all of you! That Todd guy looks familiar  Hope we can have adjacent tables next year too!

Nice work everyone!


Chris E.

[mountainman]

Reckon I best enter one next year.

You should Brian

Yes!!! Go for it Brian!!!

[B Kauffman]

I'll throw in my squirrel gun for next year.  I haven't started it yet.
Hopefully they like simple guns
Reckon I best enter one next year.

You should Brian

Yes!!! Go for it Brian!!!

I guess I'll enter one next year.
It'll have to be my squirrel gun which I have not yet started.  My other guns are all precarves. Its been 2 yrars since I built one for my own , so I have not built any for myself out of a chunk of wood. That's what iI want criticism on...my shaping.

[scottmc]

Congratulations to everyone that entered an item and then extra congrat if you pulled a ribbon.  I was behind the table the whole weekend taking in accoutrements and standing gaurd making sure nobody tried to touch anything.
I can say it was the least number of rifles ever entered and the total was below 20.  If you've never given it a shot, don't be afraid and just enter it.  If nothing else you get a critique to work off of for your next build.  I've entered 3 over the years and have managed to snag some first and second place ribbons but never best in class.  I'll try again but not for a couple of years.  They need participants!
The accoutrements were really good this year, especially the bags.  I was glad to hear the one knife got the Madison Grant award because it deserved it.  In my mind, I had it picked.
It's interesting working behind the table as you hear and see the judges perspective of things and you get a better idea of where they are coming from and how they think.

[scottmc]

Another note, someone mentioned Kibler kits being entered and yes there were a few.  But the only thing they are judged on is the finish.

[whetrock]

Could some of you fellows who are closely associated with the Kempton show post the requirements for the various categories--at least post what they were for this recent show? That's assuming that they won't change much between now and next year. I imagine that if folks knew more about the categories and how things were judged, it might help.
If the requirements are on here already somewhere, then perhaps you could put a link here, so people can find it more easily?

[smart dog]

Hi Whetrock,
I can speak to the gun judging although TommyG might need to step in here.  There are 3 skill levels or classes with each divided into "traditional" and "contemporary" categories;  apprentice, journeyman, and master. Recently they added another division for "military" guns trying to adapt the judging to the array of makers working out there.  Traditional guns are those strongly emulating a specific historical school or style.  Contemporary guns are those that do not neatly fit into any specific historical style.  Apprentice is the entry class and if you win a ribbon there, you can enter guns in the next class, journeyman, the next year and so forth until you can enter the master class.  In apprentice class, you can enter a gun as "first gun" if it was the first you made and it has its own "best first gun" ribbon plus it is judged with the rest of the apprentice class guns.  In each class there are ribbons for best carving, best patch box, best overall craftsmanship, best engraving, best conformation, and best of class.  In addition, there is best of show, which I believe could come from any class, and the Richard Hjusa award.  The Hjusa award goes to any gun that the judges feel looks like an original that Hjusa would have added to his famous collection.  It is not always awarded each year.  Finally, the judges have their "judge's choice" award, which goes to any gun they feel merits recognition but did not win in any of the other categories.

With only 17 guns, including 3 Kibler kits, to judge this year, there were more categories than actual guns.  Consequently, only a few of the potential categories and classes had entrants.  I think that is why they did not award a best in show ribbon because they were thinking across years.  In years in which 40-50 or more guns were judged, best in show meant a lot more than when only 17 guns were contenders.

dave

[TommyG]

Dave pretty much summed it up nicely.  The only thing I would add is you don't need to move up a class unless you win a first place ribbon for any category of the class you are currently in.  Also, kit guns are allowed to be entered in the apprentice and journeyman class, but not in the masters.
I really encourage all to enter your builds and accoutrements.  The feedback you get just helps you improve as an artisan.
Also, this is part of what makes the Gunmakers Fair so unique. 

[John Proud]

Quote from: Osprey on July 28, 2025, 10:51:41 AM

    One odd and I thought dissapointing thing (not that it affected my gun by any means) was that they didn't award a Best of Show for rifles.  ?  I understand some of the awards that would be what a person would of liked like the Hjusa, but it's kind of in the title of the awards Best of Show.  Take the rifles on the table and pick one.  I think Rich's point was at play here, that Hawken in the Masters class shoulda won that, especially from the way the judges spoke of it, but it wasn't an eastern PA gun.

I would have thought the same way, the best, or the best gun liked by the judges that was entered out of all the other great guns that were entered, and if it met the criteria should have gotten a best of show, but to my understanding even though I never seen it happen except the last 2 years, I was told that they didn't always hand out a best of show even back in the Dixon Day's.

It seems to me that if you have a "show' and have even only one item meeting the show's entry criteria, you must have a best of the show award. Let's hope that time never comes though.

[whetrock]

Thanks for the explanations.
Please let me ask a couple of follow up questions. I'm afraid they may sound provocative, but I'm not intending to argue. They are just leading to a more fundamental question at the end.

So, a fellow could enter his #30 rifle in the Apprentice class, provided he has not won a blue ribbon in any category in an apprentice level event at that show in the past. Is that correct?

Or asking a similar question but from another angle,
Say, for example, a fellow wanted to enter his #50 rifle. If he had never entered the show before (and had therefore never won a blue ribbon in any category), he would be required to enter at the Apprentice class level. Is that correct?

So here's the more fundamental question: Is there any effort to offer some sort of preliminary grading, so as to have apprentices competing against apprentices and masters against masters? I can imagine that apprentices have little interest in competing against journeymen or masters. And I can imagine that journeymen and masters may not have interest in putting their work into an apprentice class competition.


Here's one additional question:
You mention that a few kit guns were entered. ScottMC mentioned above that they were only graded on finishes. That makes sense. Can you comment about precarves? I would imagine that Masters class would require building from a slab. Is that the case?

Thanks for the explanations.

Whetrock
 

[t.caster]

Find looking rifle. The judges know what they know and nobody knows everything. If the architecture of your build based on an original fits the “norms” we’ve been taught, it has a better chance of meeting their expectations. If you’re basing your build on a gun with unusual traits, it’s going to be hard for them to think, yep, that’s just like that original.

I think that's what happened to my Peter Angstat rifle last year (Master Class-Traditional). I don't think the judges were familiar enough with Angstat rifles. Several well known builders said it would be "best of show", alas it only got a Participant ribbon. I acknowledge a couple minor flaws, but so much of the overall workmanship and architecture was
outstanding. (Note to self...sights need to be no more than 1/16" high, like originals).
No wonder the entry numbers keep declining.
That's not to take away from the overall experience at the Fair which was awesome! I was like a kid in a candy shop!

[TommyG]

Hi Whetrock,
  I'll try to give you some answers here, but hopefully Mike Karkalla could add to this.  He is the head gun judge and is sometimes on the forum.

So, a fellow could enter his #30 rifle in the Apprentice class, provided he has not won a blue ribbon in any category in an apprentice level event at that show in the past. Is that correct?  Yes, as far as I know

Or asking a similar question but from another angle,
Say, for example, a fellow wanted to enter his #50 rifle. If he had never entered the show before (and had therefore never won a blue ribbon in any category), he would be required to enter at the Apprentice class level. Is that correct?  Again, yes as far as I know.

So here's the more fundamental question: Is there any effort to offer some sort of preliminary grading, so as to have apprentices competing against apprentices and masters against masters? I can imagine that apprentices have little interest in competing against journeymen or masters. And I can imagine that journeymen and masters may not have interest in putting their work into an apprentice class competition.  No, I don't think there is any preliminary grading


Here's one additional question:
You mention that a few kit guns were entered. ScottMC mentioned above that they were only graded on finishes. That makes sense. Can you comment about precarves? I would imagine that Masters class would require building from a slab. Is that the case?
As far as I know, pre-carves are allowed in the Apprentice and Journeyman classes and are eligible to win ribbons in all categories.  Kibler kits are allowed in the Apprentice and Journeyman classes and only eligible to win ribbons for carving and engraving.
Scratch builds only in the Masters class. 

Maybe not a perfect system from a competition aspect, but it wasn't really started as a competition but more of a learning experience.  Getting the judging feedback helps a builder get better with each build.

[rich pierce]

Back in the day one could enter as a Master builder with a first entry. But that was long ago. I know a Canadian fella who did that and won a big pile of ribbons with his only entry ever, Master class.

[whetrock]

Back in the day one could enter as a Master builder with a first entry. But that was long ago. I know a Canadian fella who did that and won a big pile of ribbons with his only entry ever, Master class.

That would be a nice option.

[whetrock]

Scratch builds only in the Masters class. 

Maybe not a perfect system from a competition aspect, but it wasn't really started as a competition but more of a learning experience.  Getting the judging feedback helps a builder get better with each build.

Thanks in advance for your time, Tommy.

Can you elaborate briefly about "scratch builds"?
Any qualifications regarding parts?
Does a builder get "points" for hand-forged iron, or personally-sand-cast brass, for example?

I can't help but to think that, for accomplished builders, the "feedback" may not be as inviting an idea as the founders originally imagined it to be.

[TommyG]

Can you elaborate briefly about "scratch builds"?
Any qualifications regarding parts?
Does a builder get "points" for hand-forged iron, or personally-sand-cast brass, for example?

By scratch build I meant in the Master class you need to build from a plank
No qualifications regarding parts as far as I know
No points for hand made parts, but they do encourage making your own - Thimbles, patchboxes, sideplates, etc..