Any tutorials for hook breech tang fitting

[HighUintas]

Are there any tutorials or threads anywhere that give a good tutorial on fitting a hook breech to the Tang?

I've already screwed up my first one and it's too loose despite taking my time going very slow, and thinking that I had the right idea for the steps. Joe, I think I'll either have to buy a new set, or find a good welder in the area that can lay down a little bit of metal in the right spots so I can try again.

[45-110]

Are you using Prussian blue and or a sharpie? I square and flatten every surface on a mill but there is tedious needle file work to get the no gap/wobble fit.

[smart dog]

Hi,

The tutorial below may help somewhat.  Ideally, the slot in the standing breech should narrow toward the top and the hook taper also so as it is pressed home it fits more snugly.  Modern parallel sided hooks are inferior in that respect.  Also I never buy the hook breech plug.  I use the standard one that usually is fitted to the barrel when I buy it and cut off the tang.  Then I file the remaining bolster into the hook.  That way I never have to fit a new plug to the barrel.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52635.0

dave

[HighUintas]

Hi,

The tutorial below may help somewhat.  Ideally, the slot in the standing breech should narrow toward the top and the hook taper also so as it is pressed home it fits more snugly.  Modern parallel sided hooks are inferior in that respect.  Also I never buy the hook breech plug.  I use the standard one that usually is fitted to the barrel when I buy it and cut off the tang.  Then I file the remaining bolster into the hook.  That way I never have to fit a new plug to the barrel.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52635.0

dave

Thanks, Dave. I am trying to fit a Hawken style percussion breech. So unfortunately I'm not able to use your awesome method of making a hook from a standard plug. I have read your tutorial in that thread though. Thanks for doing that... It's great information and I'll refer to it when I make that style!

[HighUintas]

Are you using Prussian blue and or a sharpie? I square and flatten every surface on a mill but there is tedious needle file work to get the no gap/wobble fit.

Yes. I started with sharpie and then moved to soot.

I only removed the minimal needed to get the hook into the mortise, which did not remove the whole casting surface. And also flattened the tang and breech mating face trying to not remove too much.

This is what I had yesterday. I was trying to close the gap in the bottom. The only contact the hook was making was the bottom of hook and top/front of hook tip. It was camming very slightly in with no wobble in any direction. Then I removed material slowly from the bottom of the hook where it shows rubbing and now it is loose. It can be wiggled rotationally a tiny bit and side to side a tiny bit. The gap on the bottom is still open.

[Steeltrap]

My last rifle I fab-ed a hook breech. Flintlock however.  If you have the bottom of the hook clearing the opening, then I think you need to look at the top. Before you start there, smoke the top to determine if it's #1-the tip of the hook that needs filed....or #2-the bottom of where the top hook flat is....or #3-the slope from the top hook to the bottom flat.

(If I've made sense of that)

[HighUintas]

My last rifle I fab-ed a hook breech. Flintlock however.  If you have the bottom of the hook clearing the opening, then I think you need to look at the top. Before you start there, smoke the top to determine if it's #1-the tip of the hook that needs filed....or #2-the bottom of where the top hook flat is....or #3-the slope from the top hook to the bottom flat.

(If I've made sense of that)

Thanks!

This is what it was and still is looking like. I thought I'd already added these pictures. On contact on the tip and front of tip.

[Steeltrap]

It would appear to me that the very tip of your hook is pushing against the top inside of the tang hole....and preventing full closure.

You don't provide a picture of the flat part of the hook (see pic below of mine. Remember mine is for a flintlock)

You should also be able to "smoke" the tang hole and see where you get contact. So, if the top "flat" isn't making contact yet, you will slowly (did I say slowly?) need to remove some metal from that hook tip. Ideally the hook tip and the upper flat should snug all at the same time...as well as the bottom "flat".

Remember, it's a file\fit\file\fit process. Take it slow. I hope this is helpful.

[HighUintas]

It would appear to me that the very tip of your hook is pushing against the top inside of the tang hole....and preventing full closure.

You don't provide a picture of the flat part of the hook (see pic below of mine. Remember mine is for a flintlock)

You should also be able to "smoke" the tang hole and see where you get contact. So, if the top "flat" isn't making contact yet, you will slowly (did I say slowly?) need to remove some metal from that hook tip. Ideally the hook tip and the upper flat should snug all at the same time...as well as the bottom "flat".

Remember, it's a file\fit\file\fit process. Take it slow. I hope this is helpful.

Yes, that makes sense and is helpful. I didn't include the top "flat" (it's actually a curve) picture because there is no contact there. I will this evening.

In addition to removing (slowly!) material from the hook tip until there is even contact on the hook top flat, should material be removed from contact points on the breech mating surface Or only the hook at this point?

It seems that if you want contact between the hook top flat and bottom surface at the same time, it may not be possible. I think that the mortise might be too tall for that and/or I may have screwed up by removing material from the bottom. Not a lot, but there wasn't much extra material on this hook to begin with.

[Steeltrap]

You may not have enough metal for the top flat to snug when the bottom does.

But you will need at least two contact points for a good fit. The top of the curve (the tip and as much curve as you can get) and the bottom. So…as the top engages the tang, the bottom slides (cams over) for a snug fit.

As Dave stated, a wedge shaped hole is a bit more forgiving and gives you more contact points for a snug fit.

[HighUintas]

Well, I removed material from the hook and it closed the gap on the bottom a bit but then opened a gap at the top and became more loose. There's definitely not enough material on the hook "flat" to have it cam the top and bottom surface of the hook.

However, it does seem stable when downward pressure is placed on the plug threads simulating having the barrel on and locked in the stock with keys.

It seems I'll need to get the  breech mating face flattened and get good contact all around on the tang face and then figure out how to tighten up the hook and mortise connection.

If I end up having to replace this one ....

Are there any general guidelines on steps to follow? I haven't been able to find any in searching.

1. File/flatten high spots of tang and plug mating surface to remove as cast surface
2. Get hook into mortise all the way removing as little material as possible
3. Go back to the mating surface for good contact

Or

1. Get hook into mortise removing as little material as possible
2. Remove material from tang/plug mating surface
3. Don't worry about leaving cast surface on if contact is good

[Steeltrap]

I would't be concerned about leaving cast marks on the hook or the tang area where the hook attaches. I'd approach it as clean up and square the surfaces. And if any given surface needs little to square it I'd leave the casting finish as is. When you do this cleanup\square of the two pieces, you should have enough metal left to begin the fitting process. So, don't overdo the clean\square part.

Then begin to remove\file the hook and\or tang area(s) to get a good fit.

Remember, if you take too much metal off the hook top, then your barrel flats won't align. Same if you take too much off the bottom.

Use your dial caliper to measure the top of the hook to the top of the barrel flat. Same with the bottom.

[HighUintas]

I would't be concerned about leaving cast marks on the hook or the tang area where the hook attaches. I'd approach it as clean up and square the surfaces. And if any given surface needs little to square it I'd leave the casting finish as is. When you do this cleanup\square of the two pieces, you should have enough metal left to begin the fitting process. So, don't overdo the clean\square part.

Then begin to remove\file the hook and\or tang area(s) to get a good fit.

Remember, if you take too much metal off the hook top, then your barrel flats won't align. Same if you take too much off the bottom.

Use your dial caliper to measure the top of the hook to the top of the barrel flat. Same with the bottom.

Dang. I definitely removed too much in many places thinking that it should typically have most/all the casting surface removed. I think I might need to get another and start over. Even if I had weld added to the hook surfaces, I'm not sure I could get the breech mating surface trued up. Maybe flatten the tang face with sandpaper on a flat plate and then the breech face could be whittled little by little.

We'll see. Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it. Mating these two pieces might be the only thing there's not a thorough step by step tutorial for on here.

[Steeltrap]

Dang. I definitely removed too much in many places thinking that it should typically have most/all the casting surface removed. I think I might need to get another and start over. Even if I had weld added to the hook surfaces, I'm not sure I could get the breech mating surface trued up. Maybe flatten the tang face with sandpaper on a flat plate and then the breech face could be whittled little by little.

We'll see. Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it. Mating these two pieces might be the only thing there's not a thorough step by step tutorial for on here.

Well....starting with another hook breech presents you with the work needed to properly fit the new plug to your barrel. I am assuming when you purchased the barrel that the breech plug came already installed\fitted?

So, that's one matter.

So, I'd pose this question to other more experienced builders:  Can the OP silver solder a piece of flat steel to the top\bottom, or both (whatever is needed) and then refit the hook? I know I've silver soldered mis-tapped lock holes and broken steel TG's in the past. I can't see why adding material to this hook would cause any future issues as long as the silver solder was done well.

Or, you can fit a new breech plug then fit the hook breech from there.

In any event, don't be discouraged by having to do the fix. I can point out the far too many "fixes" I've had to do from my past blunders. I've learned a whole bunch from my fixes blunders. 

[bluenoser]

I am far from an expert, but have tightenrd up the hook on a number of antiques being returned to shooting condition by soldering shims on at appropriate locations.  Either steel or brass will work, but I avoid using brass at the bottom of the hook due to the increased potential for wear.  There is very little, if any, stress on the joint and I see no reason to use silver solder.

[taterbug]

Search for "Hawken stuff", posted by D. Taylor Sapergia.  Many pages, but also many pages.  Also, there were a couple of threads by member Herb that included tips on fitting a hawken hook breech. 

I think these are still threads in Gun Building that did not get converted to tutorials. 

[Steeltrap]

I am far from an expert, but have tightenrd up the hook on a number of antiques being returned to shooting condition by soldering shims on at appropriate locations.  Either steel or brass will work, but I avoid using brass at the bottom of the hook due to the increased potential for wear.  There is very little, if any, stress on the joint and I see no reason to use silver solder.

This may be your best bet to avoid re-fitting a new breech plug. Then again, if you have to add steel sheet stock to the hook, you may have to file the hook down more in order to add metal to it.

Frankly, I don't know which would require more work.....soldering and re-filing the existing hook, or fitting a new plug, then fit the new hook.

TOTW sell sheet steel. The thinnest is .025 in steel, or .016 in nickel silver.

In thinking about what type of solder to use, the soft (easy to use) solder should work fine. I think Bluenoser is right as there isn't much stress on the hook breech part. The recoil goes straight back so the mating of the tang and barrel is the most important.

In any event, give it some thought. If you know someone or have access to a Tig welder (and I'm not the guy to consult on welding types) that may also be an avenue.

Good luck and keep us posted on your build.

[HighUintas]

Search for "Hawken stuff", posted by D. Taylor Sapergia.  Many pages, but also many pages.  Also, there were a couple of threads by member Herb that included tips on fitting a hawken hook breech. 

I think these are still threads in Gun Building that did not get converted to tutorials.

I have read that thread and Herbs many many times. Unfortunately they don't go into the order of steps or things to watch out for when fitting a hook to the tang. IF I can get good at it, I will make one

[HighUintas]

I am far from an expert, but have tightenrd up the hook on a number of antiques being returned to shooting condition by soldering shims on at appropriate locations.  Either steel or brass will work, but I avoid using brass at the bottom of the hook due to the increased potential for wear.  There is very little, if any, stress on the joint and I see no reason to use silver solder.

This may be your best bet to avoid re-fitting a new breech plug. Then again, if you have to add steel sheet stock to the hook, you may have to file the hook down more in order to add metal to it.

Frankly, I don't know which would require more work.....soldering and re-filing the existing hook, or fitting a new plug, then fit the new hook.

TOTW sell sheet steel. The thinnest is .025 in steel, or .016 in nickel silver.

In thinking about what type of solder to use, the soft (easy to use) solder should work fine. I think Bluenoser is right as there isn't much stress on the hook breech part. The recoil goes straight back so the mating of the tang and barrel is the most important.

In any event, give it some thought. If you know someone or have access to a Tig welder (and I'm not the guy to consult on welding types) that may also be an avenue.

Good luck and keep us posted on your build.

Well, lucky for me I bought my plug and barrel separately and decided to work on fitting the hook to tang BEFORE fitting the plug to barrel in case I screw it up. I've done a plug in barrel and that's easy oeasy, so not worried about that part.

So, I can easily get a new assembly and start again, keeping this one for practice in fixing boo-boos, or just try to fix this one.

I actually did soft solder (Oatey paste solder) some mild 0.027 sheet on the bottom of the hook a night or two ago to try to tighten it up. I filed it down, got it tight, then tried removing material from the hook.... Bad idea. It sits too high and is loose again. So, I need to add material to the hook tip and the sides.  That will get it tight, then I can try to remove material from the plug or tang mating surface to get good contact.

I tried flattening the tang face last night with sand paper on a flat surface.... For some reason it didn't seem to work very well. I may have to approach it with a strategy like wood inletting and remove the high spots from the tang face since it's the easiest surface to work on.

One note on soldering though.... For the final fix I don't want to solder metal on because I wanted to have this case hardened for the finish, so solder won't work. It will have to be weld.

The weld shop I talked to said likely $20-45 for the work. I don't know anyone with a Tig

[Steeltrap]

Sounds like a replacement would then be the best way to go.

But there is a lesson learned here. BTW, on my most recent pistol build, I fashioned a pistol buttcap from sheet brass. Well, the second time around I got it right. It was a "deep" buttcap.

My first attempt I "beat" on the brass so much that I made it paper thing....which resulted in what you see below.


My second attempt I got much better. But it was "painful" going thru that learning curve!!

[HighUintas]

Sounds like a replacement would then be the best way to go.

But there is a lesson learned here. BTW, on my most recent pistol build, I fashioned a pistol buttcap from sheet brass. Well, the second time around I got it right. It was a "deep" buttcap.

My first attempt I "beat" on the brass so much that I made it paper thing....which resulted in what you see below.


My second attempt I got much better. But it was "painful" going thru that learning curve!!

Everything I've done so far in the muzzleloading world so far has been a major learning curve and experience! I've learned a lot and it's been fun. Made lots of mistakes, learned how to fix them and how not to fix them.

I read your thread awhile ago on that pistol and that cap sure seemed tough to make. It turned out well though. Great job on it.

[bluenoser]

TOTW sell sheet steel. The thinnest is .025 in steel, or .016 in nickel silver.

Feeler gauges make excellent shim stock and geneally come in increments from .001" to about .030"

[HighUintas]

I got it tightened back up by a lot of peening with a few round cold chisel punches around 1/4" diameter, using a small ball peen hammer as a punch and larger hammer to drive it. It snaps in tight with zero wiggle, but a very small amount of contact that I'd be worried about wearing down over time even if it is case hardened.

You can see the heavily peened surface on the back of the hook


Sharpied the hook and now you can see where it rubs









It's a very tight fit and looks fairly good at a glance, but there's some gaps on the mating surface that need to be fixed











I'm not sure if I should work on the hook anymore. I can't imagine peening will increase the overall width of the hook to get more contact on the sides. Or will it if I wail on it, file the highest spots to keep it fitting in the tang, and repeating until there's more contact?

Or start color transferring and removing material from the breech face to close the gaps?

[Steeltrap]

As I state below in my comments on your pics, the hook tip looks like enough to keep the barrel aligned with the tang. The recoil pressure is straight back...not up and down.

If the curve leading up to the tip contacts the tang then that's good as well.



As I say below if you have enough metal contact east\west to keep the connection tight, then you should be good.

There's no "loss" except for time by continuing to peen the metal to get where you need it to be. Worse case scenario is you have to get a new plug. I'd spend a bit more time on this....then if I don't see it getting better I'd replace with a new one.

[Bob Roller]

I have done ONE like this one that I can remember and that was in Bill Large's shop.I made several bolster (patent breech)types for him and used his milling machine and hand tools.They were called a "solid patent breech"because the tang was integral with the bolster.Looking back,that over 50 years ago.Bill has been gone for about 40 years. made one for my one and only "Hawken" and it worked with no problems
or misfires.t was part of the learning experience and I am glad I can still remember doing it.
Bob Roller