another stock layout question

[ronward]

 i am looking for information that isn't readily available, but important to me to be satisfied that i am building as honest a representaion of a vincent as i can. i would think the anwer to this one migh have to come from someone who has an original gun.
       when laying out the cast, is there a commonly established point to rotate the centerline of the stock from or did each builder use what he thought was correct?
       specificly,......did vincent originate the cast from where the wrist meets the lock panels so that the wrist was aligned with the cast or did he rotate it at a point where wrist meets comb, so that the wrist stayed aligned with the centerline of the bore? is/was there one method  considered proper?
        i realize it probably makes no difference in any aspect of  historicly correct construction, an inconsequential detail that would go unnoticed, but if it is known or can be done as he would do it, there is that "self-satisfaction" of knowing you did all that could be done to build as honest a replica as can be made.

[northmn]

We have been here before.  A very common way to rotate off the line of center is where the end of the wrist meets the comb.  This is done to permit tang and triggerguard  and DST's to be layed out to the centerline.  Modern shotguns are are laid out that way for the action to look centered.  Otherwise you would have to make the tang bend to one side slightly, etc.  Cast off should also be minimal as the 1/4" from center I used to use can be very noticible.  If you are using a wide buttplate of about 2" that would be about right.  For the narrower buttplates of 1 1/2 inch, I would consider not doing so.  Cast off has a tendency to kick into the face on a large bore rifle and I highly recommend that you shoot one before final finish to adjust for it.  The idea of cast off is to get the face more centered to the centerline for natural pointing.  You can do a lot with the fit of the comb also, especially with a norrower stock.  What Vincent did I have no idea but I am talking about cast off in general. I do not even know how many original guns were built with cast off.

DP

[keweenaw]

Not speaking of Vincent rifles, most flintlock rifles have the cast start at the rear of the lock panels.  The rear of the trigger plate on a single trigger rifle is only slightly behind this and will not look off center and the guard alignment is adjusted so the rear guard finial is centered.  Guards are complex enough that any slight curve put in them to achieve this isn't noticeable.  If you start the cast on a longrifle at the point of the comb the rifle will look like it has a bent stock as the angle of the bend has to be much sharper than it would if it was started 3 inches farther forward.

Tom

[ronward]

 guys, thanks for the great advice.
     snyder,  it is that look of the bent stock from starting at the comb that generated my question originally. i laid my wood out both ways and noticed how pronounced it look and then though about wheather some might know specificly how vincent would have done it. i don't know if it would be worth throwing that question out to the Ohio Longgun gang or not.
 northmn, from what i have gathered, it seems to be pretty common in the guns (ML'ers) made today by the guys that are seriously replicating originals.....that brings me to the assumtion( ya, i know!) that it was present in the originals.  wheather in  vincents, or not,...i don't know as well. i am seeing values of 1/4 to 3/8 inch, when listed! i have drawn in 1/4 inch, because from earlier stock work on centerfires, i am aware of how cast can make a stock behave when it kicks. when considering all the drop in these stocks and add to that some considerable  cast off, i would think the kick is  into your cheek bone pretty good on a gun with some horsepower.
    i have also noticed  the rear triggerguard finial on some of the castings offered by a few dealers made with some rotation in them for this.

[Don Getz]

If I were building a Vincent, I would build it straight, not worry about cast off.    Of all the rifles I have ever built, I have not intentionally put any cast off into them.   Some rifles require it, most don't..........Don

[northmn]

The more cast off you put in the more "crooked" they will look however you do it. I never used more than 1/4 inch and wonder if any less is needed.  I agree with Don in that with a narrow butt plate you do not need cast.  Usually 1 1/2 inches or so is a good indicator.  As to originals, the only guns that were built all that much the same were the manufactured trade guns made from about the 1820's as that was the start of the industrial revolution and certain machines and manufacturing techniques were employed.  At that time the Golen Age guns were true custom guns.  In putting in cast off you have to also deal with installing the buttplate at a slight slant with the tang pointing the right direction or they look a bit odd.  when you use a square cut bandsaw like I do it takes a little more rasping for fitting.

DP

[ronward]

  you can set the table of your bandsaw to the angle of the centerline of the stock and it will cut correctly for the cast. there will still besome rasping as you said, but it won't be nearly as much
   it can be done with a non-tilting band saw table... set your stock on a dowel close to the butt plate so that the required angle at the center of the plate has you lift the forearm up, then as you start the cut, use the forearm to lever the butt up against the saw's pull so that the blade is entering the butt at right angles and as you move to the center of the plate, slowly relax the the forearm so the butt drops down the saw's table through the middle of the cut, and as you move to the other end of the cut slowly push the forearm back down to raise the butt so that your cut exits with the blade again at right angles to the to the stock. that way the entry and exit of the cut is straight across the stock's width and the center is cut square with the cast's centerline. with a good centerline drawn on the top and bottom of the butt, you can watch the angle in relation to the blade and get pretty close to what you have to have. it is an aquired skill from using a band saw a long time, but it works pretty good for me. i have also tried it with success by leaving the tilt lock loose and keeping the stock flat on the table, using the forearm to lever the entire table as i cut. these have obviously not been done for a MLstock yet by me, as this will be my first build, but i have done this type of thing literally since i was a teenagaer, steadily, so i'm sure it will work fine for this. the idea of having to do a little rasping or shaping after i cut is pretty normal for me and generally not even considered against the results i'm after. good saws, sharp tools and good files and knowing how to use them, make it all pretty much a matter of regular operation in my line of work.
     yup, ideally you should have the tang shaped to keep the buttplate at right angles to the center of the bore while the tang follows the centerline of the stock. i realize there are none made that way, but i  making my own plate.  out of 3/8 x1-1/2 brass flat stock, mitering it together and silver soldering at the junction of tang and plate, then shaping the long vincent "tip" into the joined pieces and tapering the plate down to about 1/8 thick at the heel, where it meets the heel plate..file, file, file, file.......and then file some more!  iv'e already got a buck made of the shape of the plate and the pieces roughed out, i did that last night. next step is to get the long miter at the comb to fit good so the solder joint is just a thin line.

[northmn]

If this is your first build you have yet to experience the joys of fitting a brass butplate.  Good luck.  Of the jobs most cussed at there is the entry thimble, buttplate, and nosecap not neccessarily in that order.  I have made most of my breechplugs out of grade 8 bolts and then welded a tang on out of 1/4X12 inch flat stock.  Goes back to the days of Douglas barrels when you had to regulate the position of the breechplug to accomodate the barrel runout.

DP

[ronward]

  oh, i'm fully aware of the compound aspect of fitting a buttplate. most people get themselves in trouble when they visualize the plate going on to the butt from both planes at the same time.... you have to think and work in one plane, use your inletting black, start by morticing the tang in along it's intended finished attitude (parallel to the top of the comb) and keep it in that plane every time you go for a fit of the plate... it's not too bad if you get started right and keep in mind that you can't move the plate up or down on the stock once you get going..... at least, if the tang is flat on the bottom, you can make yourself a nice flat spot on the top of the comb to work off of.  if the tang is sloped at the mortice, then you have to work off the top of the comb/tang and mortice both tang and plate faces in together while keeping the top of the tang in line with the intended top of the stock.  i've been  playing with chisels and wood my entire life and it's not too much different than setting a skeletin buttplate on a centerfire gun, you have to work them in on one plane also. this might be my first ML build, but it's not the first time i had a chisel in my hand.  i've got seven mausers and a ruger No.1, all with wood that i that i made from blanks  
     funny you should mention the breech plugs... that's exactly how i intended to make mine!... i spent 34 yrs. in the carpenter's union( started right out of high school), the last 15 with a welding certification, but my neighbor is a pipefitter, so i'll most likey have him tig the tang on,...allot less messy. i'm going to start looking in my mailbox in March!...yippeee!!!...34 years in this trade is long enough.
    i heard the BP douglas barrels shot pretty good despite the runout. did you put the hole up or down? i have two of them on my CFguns, they both shoot good.
   

[northmn]

Generally the Douglas was marked with runout on the Flat with Douglas marked on it.  Generally we put the Douglas name down as Douglas did not build the rifle.  I believe the runout came toward the name.  They were very good barrels and shot very well, as good as any of the production made today, especially if one got a XX.  I ahd one where the runout came out kind of funny and it tended to shoot to one side up close and the other side further out with a 50 yard zero.

DP

[ronward]

 that douglas with odd ball POI. had the flats not quite oriented perfectly with the with runout, the runout went through the barrel in two planes.... consequently, the trajectory that barrel threw was slightly canted. putting impact in two different verticle planes at different distances.