smoothbores pre rev war

[jim m]

this is more of a historical ? it is general concensus that before the AWI that most long guns were smoothbores. we commonly refer to them today as Fowler's, the question is did our forefathers commonly use shot like we do today and was shot readily available. I know the English gentry was into wing shooting but what about the Colonists. I'm guessing that the average man used round ball and that shot was very expensive and out of reach for most. the key word here is guessing

[James Rogers]

I did a little survey of guns in inventories from 1749-1752 in Albemarle Co, VA.  Smooth guns were present 2 to 1 to rifles. That  said, this shows that rifles were more common that I had thought.
Here are some other bits of info. I have picked up.

*There is archeological evidence of shot found in many American locations.
*Militia records show that some companies preferred large goose shot to ball.
*The use of patched round balls in smooth guns in the 18th century is absent in historical information.
*As you stated, "fowler" is a common term. "Fowling piece" "smoothe gun" smooth bored gun" or "piece" was commonly used

Someone will be along shortly to discount the fact that smooth guns ever existed in the 18th century, to elaborate on their blasphemous waste of components and to argue against their use for any practical purpose in the past, present or future. 

[Daryl]

Someone will be along shortly to discount the fact that smooth guns ever existed in the 18th century, to elaborate on their blasphemous waste of components and to argue against their use for any practical purpose in the past, present or future. 

How could anyone make that claim?  They were certainly popular in Canada, in the East and were traded on the open market to Whites and Indians alike.

[northmn]

A while back I did a little research in this area as to shot making.  Shot towers did not appear until late in the 1700's in England, and after the Rev war.  Shot was made in a variety of methods, including casting, hobbing and and a straining system as developed by Prince Rupert in the late 1600's.  Shot was referred to as duck shot, goose shot swan shot, buck shot, etc.  Sizes were likely pretty large as compared to todays fine shot.  Some shot was made out of slivers cut off a sheet, etc.  On another thread I was also informed that imported smoothbores were quite popular as a rifle cost about 4-5 pounds and a smoothbore maybe 2-3 pounds or less.  Due to the requirements of militia service, there was a large demand for firearms.  Other terms for smooth bores are "fuke" , "fusee" and "fusil"  which do not designate use as much as a fowler.  Trade guns and some smoothbores were often referred to as fusee's or fusils.  Swan shot (shot made to shoot swans) was likely about the size of #4 buck or so.  That designation for that size shot was used until the Feds outlawed swan hunting, such that selling it as swan shot would have been frowned upon.  It has been stated that most of the Native trade guns found in the Rainy River have been loaded with shot.  Whileyou will hear comments from rifle advocates, the plain simple truth is that a shotgun loaded with heavy shot is far more versatile than a rifle.   Especially considering that most folks did not get an opportunity to shoot all that much to become good shots.  Large game can be head shot up close with heavy shot and harvested.  The 24 ga NWTG was favored by the estern natives for at least 70 years.

[hanshi]

With muskets ruling the battlefield, trade guns being sold by the thousands and smooth bores being easier and cheaper to make, I can't see how they COULDN'T be common in the 18th century.  Rifles were more specialized, couldn't take bayonets and were much less robust than muskets and possibly many civilian fowlers.  Fowlers were fast to reload with ball and in that respect were on par with muskets.

[James Rogers]

Someone will be along shortly to discount the fact that smooth guns ever existed in the 18th century, to elaborate on their blasphemous waste of components and to argue against their use for any practical purpose in the past, present or future. 

How could anyone make that claim?  They were certainly popular in Canada, in the East and were traded on the open market to Whites and Indians alike.

Daryl,

 That was an attempt at being facetious. 

[rich pierce]

Certainly shot was available.  It appears in trade lists everywhere.  Specific styles like Hudson Valley fowling guns and British-stled fowling guns prove that smoothies were used with shot quite a bit in specific areas.  In general when I see large guage (16 bore and larger) non-military smoothbores (not adapted for bayonet) I guess they were often used with shot.  There are many letters of Washington and others alluding to days spent fowling.

[northmn]

In my book published by the KRA there are a few smooth rifles.  There are those that believe tht they were rare and smoothed out later.  I question that as a smooth rifle would be very useful in some areas.  While they would be more likely to be roundball shooters that can use shot, as compared to fowlers that are shotguns that can shoot roundball, there could be utility in their use.  Another feature about most smoothbores is that they are far more pleasant to carry than many of the rifles.  As stated, the Eastern native including those from the Great Lakes area where I live used the NWTG's.  They expected quality in the guns, but they used them out of preference.  These are about the only early originals I ahve seen and are common in local museums.

DP 

[Daryl]

I am surprised more 'smooth rifles' are not in collectors hands as well.  I know some of the ball and shot guns made in England for Africa had a raised square shaped silver centre lined 'lump' on the rib to give a rear point of aim when using ball in them for buffalo, rhino and elephant. Not had this, however. Here, it would have been called a rifled smoothbore - at leaat today.

The rear sight certianly helps, which is why certain people put on a highly domed upper tang screw to their smoothies, with the slot running North and South.  This helps centre the head for windage, of course.  I tried one and removed it from my .62.  It ascued my elevation, but did help with windage.

Interestingly enough, until about 1820, in the hands of civilians, rifles dominated the prairies, however, side by side shotguns overtook the rifle into the percussion period and were more popular - for civilians, as well as some semi military units comprised of rebs. as well as union soldiers.  It is reported they were loaded with shot in one barrel, ball in the other as Forsyth oft did in India when packing a favourite 14 bore smoothbore, or loaded with buck and ball or even straight buckshot, both in paper ctgs. in the .69's on the US prairies.  The limitary load of buckshot was 15 balls of .32" for the .69's & was popular at some forts for shooting at prowling 'wolves' in the night.  It was especially praised for nightime gaurd duty- "it was rare indeed, that a shot fired at movement in the dark didn't elicite a 'shriek' of dismay."

[The other DWS]

the French brought large numbers of smooth bore trade guns in varying degree of fit and finish as well as quasi-military (non bayonet lugged) "fusils" into the upper midwest prior to the later NWTG.  they could be shot very well with a tightly patched round ball, buck'n ball. or various kinds of shot loads.
 
it makes a lot of sense when you consider the combined sporting and military use in which they were employed.  military use by the french canadian civilian population and their native American allies was typically irregular woodland warfare with little need for European battlefield tactics.  such occasional needs were met by more official regiments of troupe's de la marine or actual French regiments who would have been equipped with regular infantry arms and equipment.

For sporting use, the eastern continental woodlands harbored much more smaller game and fowl than large game.  Even what large game there would be could be adequately taken with a large diameter patched round ball or "buck-shot" since in the woods long range shots would be few and far between.  Once the frontier moved into the more open areas to the west larger game, and the thinning of the eastern forest cover due to settlement made rifles more practical.  In my research in the late 70's and early 80's I saw several conversions of early french trade guns being converted to half stocked percussion rifles, obviously much later in their "careers".

[northmn]

I read an excerpt about the mountain men making shot for their double barrels.  As stated they were popular for night guard duty.  They made buckshot by cutting up lead ball and rolling them between two flat rocks to round them (hobbing)  Hansen stated that the double barrels started to get very popular by the mid 1800's.   I sometimes think we forget that unlike a modern singleshot you do not have the same luxuary of reloading a ML to fit the game.  When I hunted with the smoothies and gave it some thought I tried loading with lead BB shot.  It was not that dramatic on small game at close range and would have dropped a deer with a head shot up close also although I never used it for that.  My research on shot of the pre-Revolutionary times makes me think that BB shot, more or less, may have been "duck shot" .  While I do not know how small they may have made shot with Ruperts screening method, it did require "poisoned" shot, or shot mixed with a little arsenic.  Here the shot only dropped a couple of feet.  Would you want to cast a load of 7.5 for a hunting load?  The cast shot was likely fairly heavy also as the sprues would have to be trimmed with a knife using the gang molds they used.  I think a lot of the shot used used was somewhere in the modern T or F category in size.  I also think the shot loads may have been a little modest as in one ounce or less.  One or two T's would not tear up a smaller animal that much.  Again they may have been pretty close.  I have known a couple of duck hunters, back when, who have dropped a deer with a load of 4's when they shot them in back of the head.  For military use buckshot of 32 caliber or so has been verified.

DP

[James Rogers]

they could be shot very well with a tightly patched round ball, buck'n ball. or various kinds of shot loads.
 
  Even what large game there would be could be adequately taken with a large diameter patched round ball

I have looked without success for any documentation to show the 18th century use of patched round balls in smooth guns. Would you be able to point to where you received the ablve information?
I am trying to collect a database of documentation for those types of things.
Thanks
James

[jimc2]

here in pa. we have what they call buck and ball guns in most of the gun making schools

[northmn]

I have looked without success for any documentation to show the 18th century use of patched round balls in smooth guns. Would you be able to point to where you received the ablve information?
I am trying to collect a database of documentation for those types of things.
Thanks
James
[/quote]

Interesting question.  As rifles used patched round ball one might assume smoothbores did, but the real possibility exists that they may have used a larger more bore fitting ball?  I had a 715 mold I shot out of a 12 bore that worked with wadding loaded like shot.  Military paper cartridges existed at that time, but I have heard debate on civilian use, (how common was paper then?).   Paper cartridges are essentially patched.  The Metis would load a bare ball to run buffalo off of horseback as did plains Indians and some whites.  One function of a patch is to hold the ball in place, some barrels were said to have "burst" during buffalo runs, likely becasue the ball rolled down the bore.  Documentation? Good luck.

DP

[Daryl]

 One function of a patch is to hold the ball in place, some barrels were said to have "burst" during buffalo runs, likely because the ball rolled down the bore.  Documentation? Good luck.

DP

I have documentation in a book of this happening while 'running' buffalo, along with the shooter being injured.  It happned with rifles, shotguns and single shot pistols. Seems to me, some of it was quotes from those observing or participating - but, this was the 19th century, not 18th.

[James Rogers]

I can find numerous information of using bare ball, bare ball with wadding, etc.
I have information all the way up to the early 20th century were guys were shooting "punkin balls" in their shotguns.
The 18th century information I have collected presented a mindset that the patching (excluding paper cartridges) was to seal into the grooves of rifling only.
Since a smooth gun does not have rifling, it appears that the practice was unknown. Not so say some individual somewhere did not try it but it does appear it was a foreign technique but I am continuing to search for information. Would appreciate any finds in the future.
I really think the popularity of patching a ball in a smoothe gun came about in the last decades where smoothbores became a new fad with modern muzzleloading rifle shooters.

[Daryl]

James - seem to me Forsyth notes the use of patched balls in smoothbore doubles for hunting in India in the 1850's.   Seems to me, F. Selous also mentioned in stories of using patched balls in his 4 bore, cut-doww Dutch fowler when shooting Elephants.

[northmn]

While I cannot think of any specific references, I have seen references to loading a wad for rifles even.  I have sometimes wondered if the "wad" was not a patch.  Unless very tightly fitted a bare ball would not want to stay in place.  Bare balling is usually a rapid loading thing as in combat or in buffalo running where they would spit in the ball and pound the butt on the saddle.  They would hold the gun upright until the shot.  They also "burst" barrels doing this.   At the very least the wad would have to be a top wad.

DP

[James Rogers]

"At the very least the wad would have to be a top wad."

DP,

This seems to be the standard practice for loading a round ball in history from the accounts I have seen. I have references to it being top wadded with most anything, even blanket.  I sometimes carelessly refer to this as bare ball as well as it has nothing between it and the barrel wall. Bare ball with no wad has always been reported as a last ditch attempt to fire another round and not as a standard practice of shooting.

[The other DWS]

JR,

It has been a long time since I was researching the French trade guns for a historic site in the late 70's---I no longer have access to those files; and like a fool I didn't keep personal copies of all my research---but I have a recollection that patched round balls were used--at least in a French frontier context.

it may have been references in some of the data on stuff recovered form the lost cargos  and canoes in the canadian rapids or possible some of the other archaeological finds.  my recollection is that at least one and maybe more were found, corroded to near oblivion, but still loaded  with a patched large diameter round ball.   I did have some correspondence with Hamilton.

I believe that there also may have some material in the Braddock after-action stuff; maybe in some medical reports or other wound discussion, that, based on the accuracy of the French and Indian musket fire, could be interpreted as indicating the used of patched round balls----but like I said my recollection is timeworn and faded.

[Daryl]

One further note, Forsyth noted pre-patching the balls with cloth by sewing the patch around the ball, yet he doesn't refer to a loading block, which might be a modern invention. It doesn't seem likely that none were used, at least in the 19th century.