Do you prefer captured keys?

[Jim Kibler]

I've always liked keys not being captured.  What are your thoughts and preferences?  I've not set the Hawken kit up for captured keys, but might change my mind if it's something others would like.

Thanks

[JPK]

Yes, a captured key is a refinement and a very handy feature in the field. You won’t be selling keys as often because it near impossible to lose them!

[Steeltrap]

Love ‘em.

[bluenoser]

Much preferred.

[Daniel Coats]

Not if they come installed in the kit. I'm thinking about metal and wood finishing.

[AZshot]

I am fine either way.  I've never had a key fall out.  Perhaps allow someone who wants them to order them that way, otherwise Non-captive.

[Hawg]

I very much prefer captured keys.

[mark esterly]

prefer captured.   if slotted keys are supplied the customer can choose the option with a simple piece of wire

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
I prefer pinned keys with 2 big caveats.  I don't like to pin mine right away.  I prefer to use them a bit before pinning them to see if they need any tweaking or if changes in humidity require some adjustment before they are locked in place.  Fortunately, with a Hawken that has key escutcheons, pins can be hidden behind them and can be removed with the plates unlike keys without plates. The other caveat is that when they are full out, they can be damaged or damage the stock.  I always push mine back in after removing the barrel for cleaning to prevent knocking them.

dave   

[Jim Kibler]

Does anyone know if Hawken rifles had the retaining pin below the inlay as Dave suggested or inserted down through the barrel channel?  Was there a standard?

[Daniel Coats]

My guess is down through the barrel channel was standard. Logic points to this conclusion because virtually all the original Hawken guns with inlays still have them. A retaining pin under the inlay could fall out with the key and inlay all together.

[smart dog]

My guess is down through the barrel channel was standard. Logic points to this conclusion because virtually all the original Hawken guns with inlays still have them. A retaining pin under the inlay could fall out with the key and inlay all together.

Hi Dan,
What are talking about?   You cut a small vertical groove for the pin in the stock under the barrel key escutcheon plate.  You place the key in the stock and then insert the pin in the groove, and then screw in the escutcheon plate that holds it in place.  Eazy peazy and nothing is going to fall out. The pin can be removed if required.  I have no idea if that was done on original Hawken rifles but it sure seems like the logical way to proceed.

dave 
 

[Scota4570]

I do prefer them.  If they are not done for me I will do it myself on the kit. 

Maybe, to keep production simple, slot the wedges but let the interested customers put the pins in or not? 

[Daniel Coats]

My guess is down through the barrel channel was standard. Logic points to this conclusion because virtually all the original Hawken guns with inlays still have them. A retaining pin under the inlay could fall out with the key and inlay all together.

Hi Dan,
What are talking about?   You cut a small vertical groove for the pin in the stock under the barrel key escutcheon plate.  You place the key in the stock and then insert the pin in the groove, and then screw in the escutcheon plate that holds it in place.  Eazy peazy and nothing is going to fall out. The pin can be removed if required.  I have no idea if that was done on original Hawken rifles but it sure seems like the logical way to proceed.

dave

Yup Dave you don't have to explain how to install it.

I have seen a lot (so have you) of old double barrel shotguns with missing inlays. I'm guessing that the barrel key snagged and pulled it off because it was mounted with a pin just under the inlay. I've never heard of or seen an original Hawken with that issue.

That's what I'm talking about.

[bama]

Keys being pinned does two things. It keeps the keys from getting lost or falling out, most of the time I fit keys to the stock, each will be a little different and the back one usually ends up a little longer than the front. Being pinned keeps them in the right slot and the right side up in the slot.

[flatsguide]

Pinned for me. The English pins I’ve seen had threads on the pins that unscrewed from the wood. Like so…

[B.Habermehl]

I like the idea of having captured keys. After slotting, retained by a staple under the forend inlay. The legs of the staple can be clinched over in side of the barrel channel. Brass wire could be easily used.   
  BJH

[ScottH]

I did one as Dave Person suggests, and it worked well for me.
My John Bergmann Hawken/Plains rifle has captured keys...

[HSmithTX]

Captured.

[snapper]

I like pins and I think all of my English guns are pinned.   I don't recall any of them pinned with a threaded pin like Richard shows.

A recent double rifle I bought was missing the pin, so I pinned it as it should be.

Fleener

[snapper]

None of my original English percussion guns have the pin under the escutcheon plate. 

Fleener

[Dennis Daigger]

Pinned here for me too with the following caveat.

While pheasant hunting with my Wiegant shotgun recently I noticed that the pinned key had slipped out. When I pushed it back in it had no tension so the hunt was over. When I got home I removed the barrels and could see that one of the arms at the center of the key was broken and the other side showed a faint crack. There was no way to remove the pin without doing damage to the wood. Fortunately, I was able to break the other side of the key and remove the head of the key from the slot.

I was able to get a jeweler’s saw blade into the slot and cut the pin removing the section the slot width in length, drive the pin down and repeating the process removing the pin entirely without damaging the wood.

I then made a new key out of 1075 steel, then hardening and tempering it. I have not pinned it yet but it will be a screw with a slotted head for whatever reason it might need to be removed again. I have an original German cape gun that is done this way.




Dennis

[reddogge]

The Ithaca Hawken I built in 1977 has solid keys. I've never lost one in all of these years. I do have mine labeled #1 and #2 so they go back to the same slot.

[Scota4570]

For me, with a high end gun, having features that represent quality and attention to detail is enough reason to include them.  This gun being an improved hawken already, I see no reason to strictly stick with original J & S Hawken features.

[ScottH]

I have an after market green mountain barrel in a TC hawken stock. The TC wedge or key, is loose enough that I had to cut a brass shim to go in under the key to make it tight enough to stay in.