Author Topic: Wood Patch Boxes  (Read 12424 times)

northmn

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Wood Patch Boxes
« on: January 24, 2010, 07:46:23 PM »
Need a quick question answered.  What are the typical dimensions for a wood Patchbox, JP Beck Style, Length, width and thickness?  Made one once but thought it a bit overdone.

DP

Offline wvmtnman

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2010, 08:39:47 PM »
I make my box openings tapered.  They are around 4 3/4 long about 1 1/8 at the rear and 15/16 at the front.  That does not include the undercut for the dovetail.  I cut the dovetail around 3/16 deep.  The lid should cover the opening by 1/16 or so.  Depending on the size of buttstock, you may need to adjust a little.  Before I make a wooden patchbox I usually make the size lid I want out of paper and lay in place to make sure the size is OK. I can take pictures later if you need.
                                                                          Brian
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 08:44:13 PM by wvmtnman »
B. Lakatos

northmn

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 09:33:01 PM »
Thank you.  Mostly wanted to get length, width and thickness.  Tapered makes sense, I made mine straight.  Also think I may have made it a little thick.  Sold the gun so don't have pictures.  Sometimes as little as I use them I think I ought to just inlay the thing and forget about function. Wiill make it functional.

DP

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2010, 09:47:21 PM »
Time to break out the ol' "golden mean" dividers for the length of the beck box???
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California Kid

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 01:19:19 AM »
Tim don't start that Golden Mean hocus pocus again!!! HA HA!

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2010, 02:12:55 AM »
 I hate to say, the Golden Mean does work. With the caveat that the rest of the architecture is layed out that way also. It's a real help to keep from getting things that just don't look quite "right".
BJH

northmn

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2010, 02:17:00 AM »
I really don't give a Tinkers ***** about the Golden mean, I just wanted a common set of dimensions.

DP

Offline Stophel

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2010, 05:00:19 AM »
I'm working (slowly) on a Lehigh gun, and the box lid I made for it is 5 1/4" long, 1 3/8" at the rear, and 1 1/8" near the front before it rounds over.  For a larger gun, like Pre-Rev. styles like I usually do, the box will be about 1 1/2" at the rear, and 1 1/4" at the front.  The thickness varies with the gun.  Just whatever looks right.  This one happens to be about 9/16" thick, including the quarter inch thick dovetail section.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2010, 05:17:27 AM »
Without resorting to measurements, I would suggest having sufficient taper to the box lid.  Also, the lid doesn't need to be as thick as many you see made today.  I see quite a few contemporary guns that would benefit from more careful box lid shaping.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2010, 05:30:41 AM »
Please, please, please let the GM sleep for a few more years, like a hundred or so. Let it sleep until the frog prince climbs the tower stair to place a kiss on its cheek.  ;D

I have a JP Beck I made, and the box lid measures 5 1/2 x 1 5/8.

Tom
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California Kid

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2010, 05:41:26 AM »
AMEN ::)

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2010, 06:30:08 AM »
 ;)
De Oppresso Liber
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Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline JTR

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2010, 08:09:52 AM »
Please, please, please let the GM sleep for a few more years, like a hundred or so. ;D
Tom

Ca Kid; AMEN  ::)
Tim;  ;)

And just when I had a nice 1000 word dissertation on the virtues of the GM!
Regretfully, John ;D


John Robbins

California Kid

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2010, 08:13:36 AM »
Thank god we are spared the 1000 words to no where. Is that like a pork bridge?
JTR check your e-mail!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 08:17:19 AM by California Kid »

northmn

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 03:36:07 PM »
Thankyou.  They are a little wider than I thought but that gives me a very good idea of what is needed.  The one I made I still feel was a litttle to thick or stuck out too much.  The buttplate on this creation is 5" deep and about 2 inches wide. 


DP

jwh1947

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 05:42:10 AM »
There is something to the golden mean and Kentucky architecture, as there is to classical art in general.  The proportion was long ago found to be both pleasing to the eye and functional; painters and stonemasons knew it long before the Kentucky era.   Useful also  is the entire, related Pythagorean Theorem and the simple geometry of the right triangle useful in gun work as well as laying roof shingles.

That's known by lots of folks.  But to go on and make a spiritual quest, or worse, an absolute religion out of it, has always seemed to me to be somewhat superfluous.  Similar to arguing how many divine spirits can lurk on the top of a c-scroll. 

While on the subject of fine art, a most useful book for Kentucky rifle people is Stephen Grancasy's Art of the Rococo. Nothing to do with rifles, but all to do with the Rococo, the urbane, European art form of the golden age...the art motif of Versailles and other places of culture and nobility.  Don't forget, that's what our masters were replicating to make their work look "classy."  They had pattern books and furniture makers, cabinet makers, and silversmiths were often down the street or a short ride away.  Wanna' bet they drank coffee, tea, and an occasional beer together and shared books and ideas, just like we are doing, of sorts.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 06:45:42 AM »
JWH, when you say religion in the same post as Rococo, it reminded me of the the arched cathedral window frame, coming to a point, very tall and narrow. Probably they used the golden mean in designing these. same proportions may work for a patchbox.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 06:45:55 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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jwh1947

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 07:39:09 AM »
Very likely so.   It is surprising how often the ratio comes into play in our art form, but, then again, if you take your golden mean cross-sticks (yes, I have a set) and start measuring rifles, you are bound to find plenty to talk about.  Just remember to include the rifles that don't "measure up" too well in your discussions, too.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:45:02 AM by jwh1947 »

northmn

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 02:44:24 PM »
Since I have my typical numbers the discussion can degenerate into the Golden Mean.  But the suggestion was made to measure for the GM.  Measure what?  A wrist is usually about 5-6 inches long, and the rest of the buttstock is then about 9-10 inches depending upon LOP.  Now you roughly have a GM ratio but not all that precise.  The wrist is made mostly for function as to grip and strength.  Too long and you lose strength, too short and your hand gets cramped.  Taking the patch box at 5 1/2 inches then you would have about 8.9 inches if you used from the comb to the butt which would have worked with the originals but today is a little short for most folks.  However if you use the total length of about 15 inches including the wrist, The patch box would be the length of the comb to butt.   where is the exact 1.618034 ratios used?  Close is pretty good looking.  Ok now how about the the width of the patchbox?  Using the GM it should be 2" at the butt and taper down accordingly on a 5 inch butt plate?  I am willing to bet that may look a little over done?  The lid should then stick up about 1 1/4 inch at the butt.  The length of the forearm is usually about one third or so of the barrel depending.  According to the GM the forearm on a 42 inch barrel should be about 16 inches.  Ever see one?  Most are about 14. The GM pops up here and there as it has been determined to be an aesthetic ratio, but in some cases may not be so much.  I believe the length of the forearm upper arm falls into the ratio?  A functonal development not artistic.  


DP
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:21:45 PM by northmn »

Offline Stophel

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 05:46:13 PM »
AAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 06:00:53 PM »
Wahhhh!
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline JTR

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 07:03:43 PM »
Woohoo! Now what did I do with that 1000 word dissertation ;D

John
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northmn

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 07:25:35 PM »
Please do not find that 1000 word dissertation.  I was merely pointing out that we build to what looks right without the need to do some anal calculation to 1.618034.  Most of the wooden patchboxes do not seem to quite fall within the fractions that number would represent.  Most could not tell the difference if you used 1-1.5.  Numbers like the GM were developed for architects, engineers and handicapped artists.

DP

Tony Clark

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 07:31:38 PM »
There is something to the golden mean and Kentucky architecture, as there is to classical art in general.  The proportion was long ago found to be both pleasing to the eye and functional; painters and stonemasons knew it long before the Kentucky era.   Useful also  is the entire, related Pythagorean Theorem and the simple geometry of the right triangle useful in gun work as well as laying roof shingles.

That's known by lots of folks.  But to go on and make a spiritual quest, or worse, an absolute religion out of it, has always seemed to me to be somewhat superfluous.  Similar to arguing how many divine spirits can lurk on the top of a c-scroll. 

While on the subject of fine art, a most useful book for Kentucky rifle people is Stephen Grancasy's Art of the Rococo. Nothing to do with rifles, but all to do with the Rococo, the urbane, European art form of the golden age...the art motif of Versailles and other places of culture and nobility.  Don't forget, that's what our masters were replicating to make their work look "classy."  They had pattern books and furniture makers, cabinet makers, and silversmiths were often down the street or a short ride away.  Wanna' bet they drank coffee, tea, and an occasional beer together and shared books and ideas, just like we are doing, of sorts.

To me these statements make more sense than any other comments I have read regarding the topic of the golden mean. Never did understand why a subject should divide folks the way this one does... it's just information developed to promote a better understanding of the nature of things, that is all. It is no coincidence that guys like Leonardo Da Vinci, Albrecht Durer, William Hogarth, all of which (I think it is safe to say) had quite a well developed understanding of what is pleasing to the eye, wrote extensive treatises which were solely about proportions. I also think they would have gotten quite a laugh out of someones attempt to dismiss the systems which the Greeks had developed regarding these same matters. How large should a patchbox be? Well I would think that if you can't tell what looks correct and what doesn't simply using your own judgement, than using advice from others would be the way to figure things out, and that is what the golden mean is intended to be, advice... not someone just telling you to "make it this size".

northmn

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Re: Wood Patch Boxes
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2010, 07:43:49 PM »
When I looked up the mathematics of the GM that is basically what it was derived from, things that were pleasing to the eye.  Windows and other things have Been made to that proportion.  However two of the mathematician's stated that its use has been "highly exaggerated" in architecture.  It is a concept that makes Euclidean mathematicians happy.  We build rifles mostly based on how they were built by what we call the masters.  They are built pleasing to the eye and nothing more.  Were I to use it on my wooden patchbox the thing would be wider than what was used.

DP