CARVING TOOLS?

[willy]

This might seem like a dumb question,
Is there any differance between a (veiner )and a (parting) tool?
After seeing some posts on carving it seems like they are the same tool.
So what's the deal?

[J. Talbert]

A veiner usually refers to a round bottom or U-shaped tool as opposed to a V-shape for the parting tool, as I understand the terminology.

Jeff

[willy]

Thanks for the quick reply!

[T*O*F]

Is there any differance between a (veiner )and a (parting) tool?

They seem to be used interchangeably here but nowhere else I've ever seen.  A veiner is a v-shaped tool used in woodcarving and leatherworking.  A parting tool is an instrument used on wood and metal lathes for separating stock upon completing an operation.

[California Kid]

Veiner is U-shaped, and a parting tool is V-shaped. Veiner is used for the veins in foilage,i.e. acanthus leaves, and fluting small details in the modeling of the carving. Nothing to do with a parting tool for a lathe.

[willy]

Thanks guys

[ronward]

 the tool used on a lathe to seperate work from stock is called a "parting tool", but has no relation to what we are talking about here. i think the reference to "parting tool" was derived by the fact that a vee-bottom veiner and a parting tool both cut a vee, so the name just sort of slid over from turning to carving.
  a veiner in carving, as i learned, can be either round bottomed or vee bottomed and are called by the shape of thier business ends...i.e... "round-bottomed veiner"..." vee-bottomed veiner"..., as well, i have heard the vee-bottomed be refered to more universally as just a "veiner" and as a "parting tool", but i believe they are names given to the same tool through indifferent reference.
   i would suppose there probably are more proper names for each tool besides "round-bottomed" or "vee-bottomed", but that's how i learned to distinguish the fact that both do the same thing, but with a different shape....not saying  that how i call them is all "correct", either, but if you refer to them as i have learned, there will be no confusion in which tool you're talking about to anyone you talk to .

[California Kid]

V-tool is not a veiner.

[tallbear]

Don't know whether they are right or wrong but Pheil calls their U shaped gouges veiners and their v shaped tool V Parting tools.Since a lot of us use their tools I would guess that is where we came up with those terms  
I would also mention that my copy of Manual of Traditional Wood Carving by Hasluck
lists u shaped tools as veiners and v shaped tool as V Parting tools.

Mitch

[California Kid]

Tallbear, its not only members of ALR, its standard carving tool nomenclature. That old carving book is a good one. I have a reprint.

[Stophel]

But, "Veiner" starts with the letter "V"!

A Veiner cuts a "U" shaped groove, no matter how it is spelled.

 

[Acer Saccharum]

Ueiner.

Happy now?

Varting tool.

Vat's dat schmell?

Vee get oldt too schoon, undt too late schmart.

[California Kid]

Ya, or should I say Si in my present location. I'm confused! Was ist das ueiner?

[ronward]

 well, there's a good reason i haven't tried carving.....i can't schpeaka de language!
     round bottom= "veiner"
     vee bottom=  "v-parting" or just "parting"(?)
   ya?,..........dunka.
   
     at what point (size?) does a veiner (or "ueiner" )  become a gouge?

[keweenaw]

Guys,

All true but the wonderful little V- tools that Dembart sells are called veiners by them!  I use the 60 degree one all the time for fine detail in carving.

Tom

[ronward]

 that's what i was thinking!
       i couldn't think of the manufacturer's name, but i thought i remembered seeing their v-bottomed tool called a "veiner" by the people that make it.
      so what's right??? would dembart, a company known for carving and checkering tools call it something it isn't? i also remember reading about checkering, can't remember who's book it was (30 or so yrs. ago), and the author called the v-bottomed tool he used to layout fields a "veiner".

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

What Woodcraft says about their Pfeil "Veiners" : "These gouges are more 'U' shaped than any other sweep. They are well suited to fluting and preliminary outlining of relief carvings. Their shape allows them to make a clean, deep cut in one pass without fear of the corners of the tool digging in."

What they say about their "V-parting tools":  "Are forged and precision ground with straight sides and vee bottom edge. Principal uses include outlining, rounding over edges with the straight side, adding detail, textures to backgrounds, undercutting, and applying decoration in chip carving."

I like the .5mm veiner for outlining.


So as the old umpire story goes:

Umpire # 1: "I am the best umpire cause I call them the way they are!"

Umpire # 2: "I am the best umpire cause I call them the way I see them!"

Then Ol' Acer said:  I am the best umpire cause they are nothing until I call them!!   

 

[Acer Saccharum]

I think we are getting caught up in something not very important.

A U shaped umpire is still an umpire. A Vee shaped one is a Vampire.

How's that for nonsense?

Tom

[California Kid]

Acer, maybe the Golden Mean needs to be applied here. HA HA. How does that V fit in that spiral?

[jwh1947]

Do all newcomers at least understand why common carving tools made for tile, regularly found in big-box stores and your local hardware store, are of no use to gunbuilders?  If not, look in the gunbuilders' guide books at how cutting edges on our tools are sharpened and relieved so as to prevent uncontrollable dig-in.  Moreover, if you do not read about and experiment with a square graver (my most commonly used) and learn how to shape and sharpen it, you may as well use it to clean your ears. Getting your tools shaped correctly and keeping them sharp is of paramount importance.  Also, as master Rich Hujas always stressed, you are more likely to hurt yourself with a dull tool than with a sharp one, as you'll be pushing harder. 

[willy]

Thanks for all the help guys.
One more question to clear everything up.
Should I use a vampire or a umpire to cut out the outline?

[California Kid]

I'd use a vampire!

[Rootsy]

I have a .5 mm Pfiel veiner as well as a 1.5 in my arsenal.   I sure wish they made them shorter than they are.  I hate having the driving hand so far away from the work. 

I find I use small flex cut and a set of japanese palm tools most of the time.  But often I find them TOO short as I cannot get a support hand comfortably behind the edge for control.. Never happy I tell ya...

That .5 mm veiner was used one time and I have not touched it since... 2 or 3 times for the 1.5... I just don't care for them...  Maybe I just need to pull the handles and break out the metabo...

I find I control a knife a lot better... Especially if it is gnat hair splitting sharp.

[Jerry V Lape]

Rootsy, Pfeil does make an intermediate length line of tools which I prefer because it keeps the guide hand closer to the cutting edge as you said.  I previously used the palm handled tools, and still do where appropriate, but for outlining especially I prefer to use the intermediate and the longer tools and tap them along with a light mallet.

[Stophel]

I push them with my hand.  The only time I drive them with a mallet is doing really small, tight scrolls.