vinegar & steel wool

[caliber45]

Can't remember who posted it, but there was reference to making a stock-staining solution (to bring up the stripes in curly maple) by dissolving steel wool in vinegar. Hey, I thought, I'll try that! Got an old pickle jar, poured in a generous dose of vinegar, snipped up some OOOO steel wool and added it. And waited. And waited. And waited. Nothing. Still got clear vinegar and undissolved steel wool. Do I need special vinegar? (Mine is white, not apple.) Special steel wool? Or did I read the original thing wrong? I'm puzzled . . . which, sadly, is not uncommon. Any advice appreciated. Tks! -- paulallen, tucson az

[Simon]

Did you wash the oil out of the steel wool?  I've not used this, but I have seen it really dark.  You might try on a scrap first.

[caliber45]

Signcutter -- Didn't realize it had oil in/on it. With what should I wash it? Dish detergent? Acetone? I'll remove the original batch and replace it with a dis-oiled batch. Tks! -- paulallen, tucson az

[California Kid]

45, takes the vinegar weeks to eat the wool as well.

[Woodstock]

I tried it also. I got better results from vinegar and nails and barbed wire. Do you have the lid off or on? It will have to have air to oxidize. As Signcutter says, all steel wool has oil. That must be cleaned out before it will do anything.  I have a batch of steel wool and a batch of barbed wire and a few nails brewing since November 10. The nails are winning. I have a brownish red froth at the top of the nail brew and a black something in the steel wool brew. If I use nothing but the froth, I get a nice rusty reddish brown. If I shake it and stir it back in with the brew it turns black in the jar and on the wood. Heat made no difference. I bought some Aqua Fortis as a back up in the event I cannot get these to work. From what I understand, the tannic acid (or some kina acid) in the wood along with heat, is what generates the reddish color. That is where I get lost. I guess every stock might be a different color if it does not come from the same tree.  

[Acer Saccharum]

Try the stain every few days. Use it when it gives you the right color.

The color you get depends on the piece of wood, each piece stains differently.

This is one of those things where you get what color you get, and there isn't much you can do about adjusting the color.

Tom

[omark]

i use file shavings from draw filing , etc, and saw dust from cutting off barrels, etc.  mark

[flehto]

Have been "brewing" a batch for 2 yrs now and completely forgot about it, until now. Just got up an checked the color and lo and behold...it's brown! All the previous samplings were of an ugly gray color and that's why it was forgotten. Went out and scoured the neighborhood for old, very  rusty barbed wire after nails and steel wool didn't work at all. Success....but still don't know if it'll be used on a stock seeing there are so many other colorants that are more predictable....Fred

[caliber45]

Thanks much for the advice, guys. I'll take heed and see what develops. Should be interesting. -- paulallen, tucson az

[dannybb55]

put rusty metal in the vinegar, that's how you get the rust off of tools. Throw wharever rusty fasteners that you have in the garage in and you will get all the iron oxide that you need.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Danny is right, the steel needs to be rusted to work overnight.  It's the reaction with the rust and CIDER vinegar that gives us the nice vinegaroon.   I get all the rusted metal I want whenever I go to one of the parking lots of the big boxes, like Lowes or Home Depot. 
Gary

[fix]

So, do you use regular table vinegar, or the stronger pickling vinegar? It seems like the stronger vinegar would work better.
I'm just about curious enough to fish out some rusty stuff and give this a go.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Fix, the cider vinegar is usually reduced with water to 5% acidity.  This would work real well.  I don't think having it stronger is needed, but if you have some give it a go and let us know. 
Gary

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've been using this stuff for a few years.  I've been puzzled by why sometimes it took days to dissolve the steel wool and othertimes it happened overnight.

I think I stumbled on it.

Some of the steel wool needs to be exposed to the air!

If the wool is completely submerged it takes forever to dissolve.  If the wool extends above the liquid surface then it dissolves pronto.  I think I discovered this as I was monitoring a batch for several days and observed the vinegar slowly evaporating until the wool broke the surface.  Next day all the wool was gone.

I haven't had the need to use this anymore.  So if any of you fellers care to test my hypothesis I'd appreciate the feedback.

[John Archer]

If the vinegar was evaporating it was becoming more acidic....that could be the reason the steel wool dissolved faster?

John.

[Mad Monk]

I've been using this stuff for a few years.  I've been puzzled by why sometimes it took days to dissolve the steel wool and othertimes it happened overnight.

I think I stumbled on it.

Some of the steel wool needs to be exposed to the air!

If the wool is completely submerged it takes forever to dissolve.  If the wool extends above the liquid surface then it dissolves pronto.  I think I discovered this as I was monitoring a batch for several days and observed the vinegar slowly evaporating until the wool broke the surface.  Next day all the wool was gone.

I haven't had the need to use this anymore.  So if any of you fellers care to test my hypothesis I'd appreciate the feedback.

Time for some basics here.

Cider vinegar is 4% acetic acid.
Wine vinegar is 8% acetic acid.

The vinegar does not dissolve the iron.  Acetic acid is corrosive to most metals.  For a few thousand years it was used to make copper acetate and lead acetate.

The fumes given off by vinegar are more corrosive than the liquid itself.  In producing copper acetate and lead acetate the plates of pure metal were suspended above the liquid in covered crocks.  The copper acetate or lead acetate then formed on the surfaces of the plates.

This holds true for how it reacts with iron.

For use as a wood stain or dye for cloth or leather.
The metal plates would be dipped into the pool of vinegar in the bottom of the crock.  Any acetate form of the metal would dissolve in the pool of vinegar.  Then the plates would go through another vapor exposure.  Then dipped in the pool again.  This would be repeated until the available acetic acid had been used up or the proper dye/stain concentration had been reached in the pool in the bottom of the crock.

The acetate form of lead, copper or iron is unstable in contact with air.  You must keep some excess acetic acid in the dye or stain solution.  By "unstable" I don't mean it will blow up.  The acetate form of these metals is not the environmentaly stable form.  Acetate of iron (ferric acetate) will quickly convert to iron oxide in contact with air.  Lead and copper acetate will quickly convert to the carbonate using carbon dioxide from the air.

Bill K.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The vinegar does not dissolve the iron.

I'm not sure what you mean.  Do you mean that the vinegar doesn't dissolve iron as water dissolves salt?  From your discription it sounds like the exact correct way of describing this phenomena would be to say that the vinegar reacts with the iron.  This reaction forms a new compound (iron acetate) which then dissolves in the water (vinegar is 92%-96% water). 

Am I understanding this correctly? 

If so I must dissagree with:

Time for some basics here.

This is NOT basics, this is getting advanced.   

One more question then.  If I recall correctly once only a little bit of steel wool was exposed to the air the entire piece of wool dissolved overnight.  I thought that perhaps there needed to be some Oxygen from the atmosphere thrown into the equation.  I was imagining some exchange of electrons occuring with the steel wool acting as a conductor. 
 

[Mad Monk]

The vinegar does not dissolve the iron.

I'm not sure what you mean.  Do you mean that the vinegar doesn't dissolve iron as water dissolves salt?  From your discription it sounds like the exact correct way of describing this phenomena would be to say that the vinegar reacts with the iron.  This reaction forms a new compound (iron acetate) which then dissolves in the water (vinegar is 92%-96% water). 

Am I understanding this correctly? 

If so I must dissagree with:

The acetic acid is corrosive.  Iron is not soluble in acetic acid nor the water containing the acetic acid.  So the acetic acid converts the iron to ferric acetate.  Ferric acetate is highly soluble in water.

This ferric acetate is one of a number of "mineral pigment dyes".  Mineral pigment dyes are made by reacting a metal in organic acids, such as acetic, or inorganic acids such as nitric, hydrochloric or sulfuric.

These mineral pigment dyes were widely used until late in the 1800's.

Bill K.

Time for some basics here.

This is NOT basics, this is getting advanced.   

One more question then.  If I recall correctly once only a little bit of steel wool was exposed to the air the entire piece of wool dissolved overnight.  I thought that perhaps there needed to be some Oxygen from the atmosphere thrown into the equation.  I was imagining some exchange of electrons occuring with the steel wool acting as a conductor. 
 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Thanks for the response Bill.

You posted:

So the acetic acid converts the iron to ferric acetate.  Ferric acetate is highly soluble in water.

From my point of view this sounds exactly the same as what I posted earlier. 

. . .the vinegar reacts with the iron.  This reaction forms a new compound (iron acetate) which then dissolves in the water (vinegar is 92%-96% water).

Help me out here.  Is there a difference between what you are saying and what I am saying?

[Mad Monk]

Thanks for the response Bill.

You posted:

So the acetic acid converts the iron to ferric acetate.  Ferric acetate is highly soluble in water.

From my point of view this sounds exactly the same as what I posted earlier. 

. . .the vinegar reacts with the iron.  This reaction forms a new compound (iron acetate) which then dissolves in the water (vinegar is 92%-96% water).

Not really,

I just explained the chemical process the iron and acetic acid go through.

The more you know about the basic chemistry behind this stuff the better able you are to deal with it and figure out what went wrong if it does not come out right.

The use of vinegar to "dissolve" metals goes way back in time to the ancient Greeks.  Pliny (The Elder) wrote about this stuff back in 50 A.D. in Rome and he was simply translating old Greek into his Latin.  Most people think of the chemical industry as something recent when in fact it is more a question of scale of production.  Magnetic media used in computers and tapes has its roots in the nitrate of iron stock stain and fabric dye "technology".

Bill K.
Help me out here.  Is there a difference between what you are saying and what I am saying?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Dang Bill!  I'm feeling pretty stupid here.  On a practical level I can't see any difference between what you post and what I post.  I can see a semantic difference, but I'm not grasping it as a practical difference.

Mad Monk posts:

So the acetic acid converts the iron to ferric acetate.

Black Jaque posts:

the vinegar reacts with the iron.

Converts . . . Reacts. . . same difference no?

Mad Monk posts:

Ferric acetate is highly soluble in water.

Black Jack posts:

This reaction forms a new compound (iron acetate) which then dissolves in the water (vinegar is 92%-96% water).

?

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Looks to me like Bill was simply confirming your hypothesis regarding the fact that the fumes do the work, not the liquid. From both a chemistry and practical historical perspective. I would say you were pretty sharp to have figured it out on your own.     

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I would say you were pretty sharp to have figured it out on your own.

Oh wait.  I think I'm getting it. 

My last question was:

Is there a difference between what you are saying and what I am saying?

Bill's reponse was:

Not really,

I just explained the chemical process the iron and acetic acid go through.

The way the formatting worked out in Bill's post I just didn't pick up on that.  Ha, ha, ha.   Man am I laughing at myself now!  Oh sure, I'm sharp enough to pick up on the iron acetate thing - but too dim to figure out that Bill was agreeing with me!  Duh. 

[John Archer]

Good info! I'm just wondering if we'd do a faster, more even job of browning if we suspended the parts/barrel etc above containers of browning solution in a closed box rather than swabbing the solution on the metal?

John.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

speaking of the caustic properties of vinegar vapors.

I was making hashbrowns the other day and poured a dash of vinegar on 'em.  The griddle was a tad on the hot side and my face got blasted with the fumes. I inhaled - nearly collapsed my lungs!

Maybe I'll hold some bare steel above boiling vinegar.  hmmm.