Tennessee rifles forever!

[G-Man]

The rivet and the braze were part of the same single process of attachment.  The two pieces of the buttplate (the part that fits against the butt, and the tang/heel piece) were typically riveted only to hold the two pieces together while  brazing in the forge.   There are some I have seen that have no evidence of a braze line or rivets, and appear to have been forge welded.  Copper rivets were sometimes used on pieces that have the bottom (toe) of the buttplate riveted to the toeplate, but these pieces were not brazed together.

Triggerguards sometimes show evidence of rivets, sometimes not.  Sometimes the bow and grip rail were formed from two separate pieces, and pinned/brazed or forge welded at the back of the bow.  Others had the grip rail and bow formed form one piece, with the back of the bow formed from a speparate sliver of iron notched into the underside of the bow section and brazed or soldered in place.  Sometimes various sections were split or raised from a single piece of iron, and then forged and filed to shape.

Guy

[B.Barker]

The Carles Bean in Irwin's book on page 22 has a diamond lock bolt washer thet looks a lot like this one. Also the cheek piece looks very close. I was looking at that book last night and thought it looked a lot like this one when I seen it.

[WElliott]

Gentlemen, it may be helpful to have photos of a signed Ambrose Lawling rifle to compare to JTR's find:

[Ken G]

Thanks for the pictures Wayne.  That's a beauty too!  Man are we Southern builders blessed this week or what.  I was already tickled over John's pictures and a friend sending me some pictures of a Soddy rifle (My personal favorites) and now this.
Cheers,
Ken

[Robby]

Thanks Guy. Wow, another beauty! Are the flintlock version of these rifles the same basic architecture? I have got to get A copy of Mr. Irwin's book!

[JTR]

Thanks for the pictures Wayne, and that's a fine gun as well!
The construction details I see on yours are the same as on mine more or less exactly. From what I can see of the details;
They have the same triggers.
Same trigger guard.
Same small segmented hinge on the patchbox door.
Same RR entry pipe.
Same tang and screw placement.
Same butt plate.

Differences I see; The rear sight.
The lock and drum. But at this late date, he surely used commercial parts here?

In answer to Guy and Carper on the trigger guard. At the rear of the trigger loop, where the grip rail meets it, deep in that V, I see what looks like a bit of a crack between the two. Can I assume this is where the two were welded together?

Also, B.Barker points out the similarities between my gun and the Charles Bean shown in Irwins book, page 22.
As my gun is unsigned, are there any Tell tail signs to differentiate a Lawing from a Bean?

Thanks for all the help, John  

[G-Man]

It could be indicative of the joint.  Or it could be a stress crack in a section that was all forged from a single piece.  Is it visible on both sides?  I can't see it in the lock side photos.  In either case (joint or a crack) I would think it points to it being a forged guard.  If it was all forged from one piece (rear finial/loop, grip rail and bow, it's a brilliant little bit of forge work, in my opinion.

Can you see any evidence of a joint on the inside of the bow where the back of the bow meets the underside, or on the back of the bow where the grip rail meets the bow?

Guy

[Ken G]

John,
Of the couple of Charles Bean rifles I have seen; he used 2 pins on the ram rod thimbles and had a silver plate in the barrel.  Could be coincidence or his way of doing the thimbles.  I wouldn't dare unless it has 2 pins in the ram rod thimbles it's not a C Beans.  Just an observation.
Keep in mind, the Bean family seems to have been pretty prolific builders to begin with.  Then their production was later boosted as Carper pointed out due to their popularity, early abundance of unsigned TN rifles and the ease of adding a silver plate to a barrel. 

[WElliott]

I heave heard that there was a cottage industry a generation or so ago involving adding a Bean signature to east TN guns, since that is what the market was seeking. 

[JTR]

Thanks Ken,
This one has only one pin in the RR thimbles, so I'll leave it as a possible Lawing.

Guy, I'll take a closer look at the trigger guard to see what I can find. This little crack doesn't look like anything I've seen on cast brass guards.

John

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

I hope Jacob creates as much attention

[Ken G]

Ok. I guess over my head which may not be hard but Jacob who?

[Carper]

Thanks for showing the great A.Lawing. Family members aside he is hands down my favorite old builder.  I have owned about four of his guns, none nicer than the one shown. One was brass mounted !  Two were half stock. All had the stamp on the barrel. The tree boxes were identical to the one shown. The lids were almost flat ( not too different from the  barn door hinge you see on south western virgina rilfles.)  The unidentified rifle appears to have some convex to the portions of lid away from the hinge. It is hard to judge by pictures. Some these hill families ( like my own) made rifles from and thru several generations and generally the more modern the rifle the less some elements remained. Quite often the fit and finish are good but the style slips a little. My GGrandfather made about 150 rifles, his first(NO 1)was the one his father was working on at the time of his death in the gunshop. That was the best in style of any rifle that I have ever seen of my GGrandfather even thought it was his first ! Maybe Lawings son lost the stamp!!! Who knows but it is still about as nice as it gets but you will never know for sure who made it. That alone makes it hard to judge which family a rifle came from.  I once had a rifle scholar make an offhand comment about the quality of a rifle being made by the  Carpers as rough and only workmanlike an of little style. He had never seen any of their early stuff, like the "silver squirrel". So you cant  really rule out any family by some of the little traits.  If Lawing made that rifle, and he sure may have, it did not have that barrel on it when it left the shop. In my opinion you are very lucky to have that nice rifle and if you let it get away someday you will regret it.  Ask my how I know.    Johnny

[JTR]

Ken, it's a rifle I've been working on and hope to be able to post it in the near future,,, not a southern gun though, just an old PA gun.

I did more looking today and took off the trigger guard and trigger plate. I was going to take pics, but the batteries are dead again,, getting old I guess, like me!

On the trigger guard it looks like it's welded, or at least has a joint where the grip rail meets the rear of the trigger loop, like I mentioned before. Other than that joint, I don't see any other obvious spots. The two TG extensions where they fit to the wood looks like it has a few hammer marks in it, but for the most part is just covered with fairly course file marks, those like you'd see on the bottom flats of a barrel.

On the top of the grip rail is a long line like an inclusion, or a fold, in the iron.

The trigger plate has several hammer marks on the inside flats.

I looked closely at the butt plate, and can see where it was welded. The tang or return piece overlaps the butt plate piece, and I can see a light line on the butt plate piece where they were joined. I was going to take it off, but the screw in the butt plate won't budge so I left well enough alone.

As Carper suggests, with an unsigned barrel, whether it's the original barrel or not, or a Lawing, can only remain unknown. The barrel matches in finish with the rest of the iron parts, and fits the forearm inlet perfectly is about all I can say.

I did clean the bore though. After a brass brush, some hoppe's, and a bunch of patches the bore came out pretty clean and feels pretty smooth inside. I don't generally advocate shooting old guns, but I'd guess this one would be shootable! I checked the bore size with a .360 ball I have for another gun, and it's too large for this one, so is something less than a 36 cal.

And no, this one isn't going to get away,, not a whit of buyers remorse here!

John
 

[IKE]

It is good to see that the Tennessee rifle is still alive and well.
I will have a nice one at the CLA show this year in 32 cal. 
Jerry Eitnier
Eitnier Rifles
Iron Mounted Southern Guns