"crockett" follow up question

[The other DWS]

what is the back story (and or provenance) on the "crockett's first rifle" drawings that are available and listed in the Bivin's papers?   Is the rifle itself still extant and if so, are photos up it published?  on line?

[mr. no gold]

This could be the 'York County' rifle that is purported to have been owned by Crockett. It is a very fine gun of probably the late 1700s that came into his possession, and which he then  subsequently traded for a horse.
Not sure that who owns it today but it is said to have been kept in a bank vault in New York City at one time and may still be there. A commemorative edition may have been some years ago, and photographs and drawings have been made.
Apparently there is sufficient documentation that this gun was indeed owned by Crockett, but
whether Davy owned it or not, it is a pretty fine gun though unsigned, if memory serves.
This may be the gun you speak of though there are a number of other candidate pieces which are said to have Crockett connections.
Dick

[California Kid]

Houston Harrison did the drawings for that gun in 1988. Definitely a York gun. Caywood started making a comm. years later. I'm sure this is the gun you are talking about. I don't know where it is now. Bivins may have owned it at somepoint, I can't remember.

[The other DWS]

From what I have read, during his political days he was a real self-aggrandizing celebrity and there were even stage plays about his "exploits".   In the knife collecting world there are several large "bowie" type knives that he is reputed to have given to fans, admirers and supporters.

there is a long tradition of celebrities buying and then giving "their" personal weapons as gifts.  So I was wondering how good the documentation was on this one.    I'd sure like to know more about it.  anyone know of photographs or articles that are available?

EDIT:

I just tried a "short cut"  simply went to ASK.com and asked  "where is Davy Crockett's rifle and got a lengthy response
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_50/ai_110470560/?tag=content;col1

I'd appreciate any comments or correction to the article anyone could offer.

[rtadams]

1-30-10

DWS,

To provide a possible answer to your question-- "what is the back story (and or provenance) on the "crockett's first rifle" drawings that are available and listed in the Bivin's papers? --- L. H Harrison. This may be what you are looking for!!!

Go to the Tutorials section on this Forum and select "The Winterthur Library -- John Bivins Papers (Document 2) and (Document 1)". Under Document 2 scroll down to "Folder 3: drawings of rifles" and look at item .8e  Davy Crockett’s first rifle (full size drawing, with details; drawing by L. H. Harrison).

Best Regards,

rtadams

[The other DWS]

Its all very confusing,  it appears that the "crockett's first rifle" as shown in Bivins et drawings is the York-style rifle is the one now displayed (I'm assuming on long-term loan by its curent owner) in the museum in Knoxville--it has been recreated.
   The Lawrenceburg-presentation-rifle ("old betsy") was reputedly kept by his son and is perhaps the one on display in texas at the Alamo; probably as a later acquisition.   

In addition there is some sort of post-alamo reconstructed longrifle, perhaps incorporating alamo relics of some sort/or not on display there.  This may be the one that was at one time promoted as Davy Crockett's "alamo battle rifle"

 Another later "pretty betsy" (percussion?) is supposedly still in descendants' closeted possession.

  In addition there is some sort of knife/gun/bag assembly designated as a gift from Crockett in his political years in the smithsonian collections.

so if I'm reading this stuff right and filtering it through the appropriate filters.  there are 4 extant Crockett-owned rifles (including the smithsonian rifle)  plus the Alamo assembly rifle spuriously attributed to him.

am I understanding this correctly so far?

Is the york-style  "1st rifle" in the ALR virtual collection?
Does anyone know anything more about the Lawrenceburg presentation rifle?

[Majorjoel]

Now you fellow's have got me thinking, I have got to make a trip to the local library and dig up a book I had checked out a couple of years ago. In it was a black and white photo of the New York City bank vault rifle once owned by Col. Crockett. This rifle had a back action percussion lock on it and had no York Co. traits whatso ever. There is a color photo in the book "The Peacemakers" by R.L. Wilson of the York.....Crocketts first rifle, as it is captioned.

[Majorjoel]

A little more coming out of the fog of my memory, the New York vault back action rifle was the piece presented to Crockett by the city of Philidelphia. It had a presentation plate with inscriptions. 1835 I believe was the date. I will try and substantiate this next week when I get to the library. Very interesting subject! Dick Nogold, I'd love to pick your brain for hours and hours sometime!! You have probably forgotten more than I will ever know about these wonderful longrifles!.........Joel

[The other DWS]

Hers is a citation for the replication (at least one of'em) of the York-style rifle in the Knoxville museum

www.caywoodguns.com/davy_crockett_replica.htm

[The other DWS]

From what I have read, during his political days he was a real self-aggrandizing celebrity and there were even stage plays and "dime-novels" about his "exploits".  he had to self-publish a "true account" in order to tone down some of the more outrageous (and probably satirical) tales.  In the knife collecting world there are several large "bowie" type knives that he is reputed to have given to fans, admirers and supporters.

there is a long tradition of celebrities buying and then giving "their" personal weapons as gifts.  So I was wondering how good the documentation was on this one.    I'd sure like to know more about it.  anyone know of photographs or articles that are available?

EDIT:

I just tried a "short cut"  simply went to ASK.com and asked  "where is Davy Crockett's rifle and got a lengthy response
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_50/ai_110470560/?tag=content;col1

I'd appreciate any comments or correction to the article anyone could offer.

[Mike R]

The rifle Davy called "pretty Betsy" was presented to him by a political group in Philly.  It used to be on display in the Little Rock, Ark state capitol complex, where I saw it as a child--unsure of present whereabouts.  It is not at all what most expect, being a percussion rifle with a pronounced pistol grip on the stock!  Cline pictured it in his book on the muzzleloading rifle.  The Caywood copy of the York co rifle is pictured online [his site] and is reported to be the 1st rifle of Davy. I have seen a repro of the .40 flint rifle Davy supposedly killed over 100 bear with and it had a walnut stock with inlays. No one knows what he had at the Alamo--sort of like no one knows what knife Bowie had there--Holy Grails for collectors.  Alot of myths out there about both...

[Fullstock longrifle]

Several years ago Wayne Heckert and myself were fortunate enough to get a private, behind the scenes tour of the longrifles in the Smithsonian in Washington D.C.

While looking at the rifles, I came across the Crockett gun that was given to him by the citizens of Philadelphia.  When I first picked it up I thought, yea sure this was Davy Crockett's rifle, and then I realized that I was in the Smithsonian!  

I saw so many guns that day that my memory is a little foggy about the specifics of the Crockett rifle, but I do remember that is was a nicely made gun.  I don't think it's being currently displayed (along with many other great Kentucky's) which is a sore subject,  but it is definitely in the Smithsonian collection (is there more than one?).

Hey Wayne, do you remember more about it?  

[G-Man]

Wasn't the famous York County rifle displayed at the CLA/ Kentucky longrifle show two years ago in Lexington?

Guy

[jwh1947]

Frank, now that you relate "the Philadelphia story" I do remember about it, but I cannot recall any specifics.  There were several rifles in the collection that you and I figured were Phila. guns. 

Perhaps some don't realize that vast majority of good stuff in Smithsonian is upstairs, never to be seen by the public.  Many patent application specimens and documented stuff.  Crockett's gun was that day, I guess, small potatoes, compared to George Washington's sabre and Catherine the Great's Jaeger.  Even the Kent State M1's made an impression on me.   We held all of these in our hands.  I'll look in my pictures; maybe I took a shot of it and forgot.   

[Leighton]

There is a great article in Muzzleblasts  January 1989 by John Bivins about the Crockett Rifle and
a recreation of it. I was going to attach a couple of pages, but I do not see a way to do it . If any of you have a SERIOUS INTEREST I can e mail or fax you a copy

Leighton Stallones
l.stallones@centurytel.net

[The other DWS]

Thanks Leighton,  I sent you an email.  somehow or other I've been bit by the "davy-bug".  Guess it is 'cause my mom wouldn't let me play with toy guns as a kid and my dad wouldn't get me a coon-skin cap