Author Topic: schimmel butts  (Read 16006 times)

Offline alex e.

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schimmel butts
« on: January 31, 2010, 10:53:07 PM »
I'm building a schimmel type gun pattered after an original.I'm lookin for ideas in ways to protect the butt/toe. Leather,brass,horn,antler,iron,ect. I'm not necessarily sold on doing it yet,but am open to the right idea.I'm leaning to a simple piece of bent brass,I might even make the trigger guard out of it also.
Is anyone willing to share some pics of things they have done,or pics of old guns with said protections?
Thanks in advance.

Alex E.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 11:20:28 PM by alexsnr »
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Offline Stophel

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 11:21:05 PM »
It's really not necessary, besides, if you put a piece of sheet metal or something on it, you might as well put a regular buttplate on it (which would have been done in bulk and ready to go in the gunshop).

Just round off the toe a bit so there's no sharp corners to start a chip and it will be fine.   ;)

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Offline ehoff

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 12:05:14 AM »
You don't really need it but, you could do a heel plate. Sorry the picture is blurry, but it sould give you the idea. Its just a thin J shaped strip, give the heel a little protection.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 04:19:31 AM by rich pierce »

Pvt. Lon Grifle

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 12:56:14 AM »
I've hunted small game for many years, all year round with a South Carolina poor boy that has only a 1/5 portion heel butt plate with no comb return and a bit less buttplate at the toe. The only real but noticeable wear is  where the heel should have been protected at the comb  return.   

Seems that the heel is always what takes the ground contact. Should of had 1 1/2" there for sure.    Lon

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 03:53:13 AM »
How about an old coin?
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Offline smshea

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 04:25:10 AM »
I get people asking me to put some sort of toe protector on a schimmel and while I have , I hate to do it and don't think it necessary. I'm not all that familiar with southern poor boy type rifles and frankly there are not that many surviving Pa. originals to look at but of the ones Ive seen only one had a piece of thin steel bent over the toe and nailed in place. This was an obvious repair and the toe area had been replaced. This was an early repair but not original to the gun.

 If its a Pa styled gun , I'd leave it off if you are worried about the PC police. Personally I am a big fan of doing whatever you want. If you choose to leave it off just do what has already been said and make sure your corners are not as sharp as usual unless you are looking for natural ware and tare in a hurry. ;D

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 04:32:09 AM »
Well shoot, saw the subject line and I clicked on the thread thinking it was some kind of porn.   ::)

Pretty much all of the PA pieces I've seen were just plain shaped wood.  The thing isn't supposed to last forever - that's the point.  It's cheap.  If you use a piece of hard maple and round over the heel and toe well, you'd be surprised at how hard it will be to damage it.
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Offline B Shipman

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 07:20:27 AM »
It doesn't hurt to pick a piece of wood with good grain strength in the toe area either.

Offline Stophel

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 07:32:32 AM »
Remember, these were rough guns.  Literally kept in a barn.  They went "Bang" and that's it.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 05:11:21 PM »
Hey, it's a "barn" gun, doesn't need any protection back there, will do just fine, at least for your lifetime.   I have a gun built by Dave Motto, plain little 40 cal., no buttplate.   For years this was my favorite shooting gun, won a lot of stuff with
it, shot it a lot....shows very little wear back there.    Also, about 15 years ago I built myself a new chunk gun, no buttplate.....shot it a lot, but shows very little wear..........so, what's the problem?          Don

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 11:29:29 PM »
This has been very interesting.  I would like to one day build a poorboy style Bucks County style rifle.  Do you fellas thing that style butt would be sound with no buttplate??

Coryjoe

northmn

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 01:39:55 AM »
Currently builing a poor boy with no buttplate.  Used it last squirrel season and just loaded it off my boot as I think a few folks do.

DP

Offline smshea

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 01:54:27 AM »
  If memory serves me right, there is a very Bucks Co. looking Schimmel hanging on the wall behind the cash register at Dixons.

The other DWS

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 02:07:44 AM »
please pardon my relative ignorance,  but exactly what is a "schimmel" rifle,  its a new term to me?

grouchy

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 02:34:09 AM »
Very Interesting discussion, but pictures would help! Thanks!

Offline smshea

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 03:35:29 AM »
please pardon my relative ignorance,  but exactly what is a "schimmel" rifle,  its a new term to me?

 Some of the resident Pa. Dutch experts can help with the actual meaning of he word. My understanding is that it refers to mold or mildew and the Pa. dutch use the term to refer to anything "Not Pretty" or something you might not want to show off. Wayne? Jim Correll? Any Help?
 As used in reference to a gun , it means plain or not embellished. A schimmel in Pa. is a poor boy or a barn gun elsewhere. Most of the originals you see will be from Berks or Lehigh area. They are actually rather rare likely due to survival rates but they are very rare outside of those areas. They are usually limited to a trigger guard  of some sort as far as furniture goes. They are all about lines and architecture from a contemporary builders stand point.

jimc2

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Re: schimmel butts,
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 03:45:44 AM »
Seems to me the word was mostly used south of the blue mountain. But i have seen guns from bucks what they were called back in the day????????The word has no direct meaning to firearms,but has been used as long as i have been around Pennsylvania rifles

FG1

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 03:58:09 AM »
Heres how I tackled my 32 . Just rounding heel and toe.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 04:19:55 AM by rich pierce »

Offline Don Getz

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 04:57:36 AM »
The word "Shimmel" came from a fellow by that name, an itenerant wood carver.   He supposedly did these very folksy
carvings in payment for room and board and assume it was somewhere here in Pa. where it all happened.   If you should
be lucky enough to have one of his carvings, you would soon find that it was worth a considerable amount of money.  I
think Chuck Dixon is the one who applied this name to a simple, plain gun, and assume he was thinking of this simple
wood carver when he did it.   I don't know of any gun builder by the name of Shimmel that he could be naming these
simple guns after........Don

Offline gibster

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2010, 05:30:53 AM »
I wouldn't worry to much about not using a butt plate.  I have a few original southern rifles that have survived the past 150+ years with no damage to the toe or the heel.  I also have a few that have buttplates that weren't so lucky and as a result, the toe has been repaired.  Go for the "poor boy" or "schimmel" look and enjoy the rifle.  In my opinion, if by chance it gets damaged, a repair will only add to the character of the rifle.  If you want to see some pictures, there are several rifles in the library that were made without buttplates.

Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2010, 05:47:19 AM »
From the Cumberland County Historical Society web site:

Wilhelm Schimmel was a gifted woodcarver, and a colorful, albeit poignant, character. He settled in the Cumberland Valley sometime after the Civil War, and often found temporary housing in the German community for the token payment of carving.  Numerous legends surround his erratic behavior and subsequent jail time, undoubtedly related to excessive drinking. Thus, few residents appreciated his artistic merit. Nevertheless, Schimmel entered his work in contests, winning recognition and increasing the value of his woodcarvings. He died in 1890 after a long illness in the County Almshouse, but his work lives on as among the best examples of woodcarving in the country.

http://www.historicalsociety.com/index.html

They have several examples of his carving in the museum. 
Kunk

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2010, 06:27:50 AM »
so,  "schimmel rifle" is a term you are using to describe a bare-bones functional rifle with no carving or ornamentation absolutely minimal hardware, trigger guard and ramrod thimbles, simple trigger (?) lock and barrel.
 the term "schimmel" is not a historic term?  ( the artist referred to was a post-civil war era guy,  seems hard to apply his name to a flintlock rifle---a bit of adding two and two to get 22)

Sounds like is was simply as low cost as possible could be to build a working rifle for someone who could not afford a fancier one.   kind of like a northern version of the southern poor-er boy rifle.  Its natural to assume such rifles were probably more common than the more elaborate carved inlaid versions---but generally speaking it is the more elaborate articles that tend to get preserved for posterity rather than the common run-of-the mill versions

Are actual original rifles like this found?

Offline smshea

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2010, 06:45:41 AM »
Oh yea, there are quite a few around. Personally I don't think 'Schimmel' the wood carvers name has allot to do with why these rifles are sometimes referred to as Schimmels. It could very well be that Chuck Dixon was the first to use it in regards to guns but the term Is something I've heard plenty of times here in Lebanon county to refer to other plain or dirty things. However I'm no authority being Irish and from NJ. :D

Ps. Those schimmel carvings are actually pretty cool. They had a big display a couple of years back at the Folk art museum at Williamsburg. Funky but intersting.       

Offline Don Getz

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2010, 04:34:26 PM »
Thanks Kunk for getting the facts about old man Schimmel.   Be that as it may, I am almost certain that Chuck Dixon is the first one to apply the name to a gun, and, no matter how the name may have been bantered around to describe a simple
made item of any kind, it most likely came from the old guy and his carvings............Don

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: schimmel butts
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2010, 06:38:33 PM »
please pardon my relative ignorance,  but exactly what is a "schimmel" rifle,  its a new term to me?

 Some of the resident Pa. Dutch experts can help with the actual meaning of he word. My understanding is that it refers to mold or mildew and the Pa. dutch use the term to refer to anything "Not Pretty" or something you might not want to show off. Wayne? Jim Correll? Any Help?
 As used in reference to a gun , it means plain or not embellished. A schimmel in Pa. is a poor boy or a barn gun elsewhere. Most of the originals you see will be from Berks or Lehigh area. They are actually rather rare likely due to survival rates but they are very rare outside of those areas. They are usually limited to a trigger guard  of some sort as far as furniture goes. They are all about lines and architecture from a contemporary builders stand point.

About 15 years ago Chuck Dixon was going to do a book on the Schimmels and their relationship to the area around his shop.  I seem to recall that Tom Ames was going to help in this project.  Last time I mentioned it to Chuck he had given up on the idea of a book.

The term schimmel can be translated to a number of things.  One translation is that of, "man with greay or white hair".  But the common useage was "mildew".

Chuck used to talk about the Schimmels and often described them simply as barn guns.  They were simply tools rather than works of art as is seen in the highly decorated rifles.

Today we tend to over do a schimmel rifle.  I built mine in 1984, copying one that Chuck had hanging on the wall behind the counter.  I used a budget grade of curly maple when all those in his collected are simply straight grain wood.
He had one up there that was real cute.  Stocked in cherry where insects had been at the wood before it was made into a stock.  Several "worm holes" ran down the stock where in shaping the stock half of the hole had been cut away.

Chuck explains that someone would order a gun from a gunsmith.  The schimmel was the bottom price.  Add fancy wood and pay more.  Add some furniture and pay even more.

When you look at original longrifles from this area you have the bottom price schimmel as a work gun around the farm.  Then you had the really fancy ones that would draw a crowd at the local militia shoot.  The militia gatherings were sort of the gun clubs of their day.  Fancy rifles got a lot of attention.  Nobody would look twice at a schimmel and probably laugh at it.


It is unfortunate that Chuck decided not to publish a book on the schimmels that have gone through his hands.

Bill K.