Author Topic: Double Pouch  (Read 4666 times)

Offline Pete G.

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Double Pouch
« on: February 01, 2010, 02:07:27 AM »
My springtime project will be one of Jim Chambers' fowlers and I was looking at a double pouch to go with it. Has anyone used the pattern in Tim Albert's book? I'm thinking of enlarging it just a little bit in width and was also wondering just why the two middle pieces could not be cut as one large piece and folded. The book has some pictures of an original pouch that seems to have been constructed like that.

Also, what is a good dye to get a deep reddish brown?

Offline longcruise

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 06:42:10 AM »
I have built a number of pouches from Tim's book.  One of the double pouch patterns had an error in the sizing of the patterns.  Don't remember which one, but it is obvious when you look at them with the understanding that the patterns need to match each other.

In the end, i made my own patterns for a small double pouch and it came out like this;




You don't have to be symettrical with these patterns.  Use the same pattern for each side and reverse it to lay it out on the leather.  If you make your own pattern you will be able to size it to suit your use.

Don't take my comments about the incorrect pattern in Tim's book to be overly critical.  all the pouches below were made from his patterns with a bit of variation in the flaps, etc., and all came out as well as I'm able to do.












Mike Lee

Offline Artificer

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 12:52:10 AM »
I'm thinking of enlarging it just a little bit in width and was also wondering just why the two middle pieces could not be cut as one large piece and folded. The book has some pictures of an original pouch that seems to have been constructed like that.

Also, what is a good dye to get a deep reddish brown?

Pete,

I suppose you could make the center pouch pieces from one piece of leather, but I would expect the top center of it to roll a bit in use and would make it more difficult to keep things separated in the separate front and rear compartments.  If you wanted to do something like that, you could do a line of stitches just under the rolled top of the center piece and you would have a nice rolled edge between the compartments and it would separate the two compartments better.

As to a nice reddish brown color for the leather - well.... everyone seems to have a bit different view of what color a deep reddish brown might be.  I don't think most folks are happy with the one bottle colors usually offered. What I would suggest is you get a bottle of Fiebings medium brown as that has some red color in it.  Take some of that in a small plastic bowl type container.  Take a piece of scrap leather from the leather you use and dye a small area.  Then add a little of Fiebing's Ox Blood and try another small section of the leather.  Before you do anything else, let the stain dry thoroughly and then put some finish over both test areas as it could look good until you put the finish on it.  Then if you want it a bit redder, add some more Ox Blood.  Or you could do much the same with Cordovan and then add the medium brown to tone down the red of the Cordovan - just know that will wind up with a darker brownish color though. 

Just my thoughts.
Gus

Offline G. Elsenbeck

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 01:27:36 AM »
Pete, I think Gus has hit the nail on the head as far as experimenting to get the shades you want.  I've done similar and was satisfied with the outcome. 
 I've also made versions of Tim's double bags in his book.  In one version, as you recall, you basically sew up two bags and while its still inside out, you sew the two together.  When you then reverse them you have this big bulge in the middle.   Rather than following that method, I took both bags and turned them outside in (?) and then sewed the two inside sides together with a double row set of stitches giving the 'double bag' a slimmer profile and still have the capacity.  If I can find a pic I'll have to post later.

Gary
Journeyman in the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) and a member in the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA)

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 01:58:34 AM »
Gus, I had not thought of the center seam as adding support. I was thinking it was just a construction technique. Thanks for pointing it out before I made that mistake.
Gary, I think I follow what you are saying. The buldge in the middle was what I was tring to avoid by using a single piece, but with you guys' help I may have avoided that pitfall. As I understand it you basically sew two bags inside out but avoid sewing the middle seam until the bag is turned? Seems like the middle seam could be a problem to join once that bag is turned, or am I missing something here?

Offline G. Elsenbeck

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 02:08:53 AM »
Pete, I agree that sewing the two bags together after each bag is turned is a bit more difficult, but not impossible, and the big bulge is gone.  That is why I did two rows of stitching. 
I think what Tim demonstrates in his book for this one is protecting the stitching by doing everything while its inside out.  Yes, the bulge is there, but with time and use that should slim down some anyway.  Particularly if your leather is 4 oz or heavier. 
I think that design is perfect for 2 1/2 to 3 oz weight veg tan.  Still heavy enough and yet a bit lighter by getting a smaller bulge by following the original plan. 
Gary
Journeyman in the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) and a member in the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA)

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 04:12:39 AM »
Hi guys...you are right to mention that those directions on the pattern sizing in my book is messed up...I apologize sincerely for that and that I didnt spot it before it went to print....for what its worth, I do offer to personally help a guy through any rough spots or confusion encountered as best as I can...just drop me a line.

You are also right about the center bulge on the double...that bag was a pretty neat old home spun rig, and I dont think the original maker was used to working lots of leather for sure...If he over thought the construction of a reverse stitched double bag, using a single piece for the "center" or stitching two seperate pieces together and turning them makes alot of sence and solves the "how am I gonna turn this bugger right side out" question....Im pretty sure thats what was going on in his noggin...there are indeed better ways to do it, but as I tried to pattern from the original, I showed how that old one was done...

That said, making and joining two seperate bags with out the bulge like you were talking about is exactly how  a lot of the more professionally double bags were constructed, and I dont blame you at all for wanting to do it that way...in fact...its my plan to speak on just such construction variations at the upcoming "horners guild"  meeting at Roscoe...
TCA
 
PS  again,  please contact me any time you think I can help with a bag question...I always enjoy talkin pouches and helping out if I can.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 05:37:36 PM by T.C.Albert »
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BrownBear

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 06:39:28 PM »

As to a nice reddish brown color for the leather - well.... everyone seems to have a bit different view of what color a deep reddish brown might be.  I don't think most folks are happy with the one bottle colors usually offered. What I would suggest is you get a bottle of Fiebings medium brown as that has some red color in it.  Take some of that in a small plastic bowl type container.  Take a piece of scrap leather from the leather you use and dye a small area.  Then add a little of Fiebing's Ox Blood and try another small section of the leather.  Before you do anything else, let the stain dry thoroughly and then put some finish over both test areas as it could look good until you put the finish on it.  Then if you want it a bit redder, add some more Ox Blood.  Or you could do much the same with Cordovan and then add the medium brown to tone down the red of the Cordovan - just know that will wind up with a darker brownish color though.  


Boy, it would sure be easier if all of us were close enough to hand pieces of leather back and forth.  Even posting photos doesn't really solve it due to differences in lighting and computer models.  And then there's the difference in the way each of us would probably define "reddish brown."

With all that as a preamble and apology against sounding argumentative, I don't find the Fiebing Cordovan color to be red at all.  It's headed more toward the Chocolate or Medium Brown, with only a very slight red to it.  Anyone I've made things for doesn't see the red either.  

I've found a couple of things help.  When I want to move toward the red, I blend in successive amounts of their British Tan into the Cordovan rather than Oxblood.  By itself it's decidedly yellow-red and does a better job of "redding" the cordovan without darkening too much.  I've also found that the red comes through a little better if you cut your dye blend in half with the Fiebing reducer.  In fact, if you want the leather "color" to show through and help with the effect, you might be happier with 3:1 reducer:dye.  You might also try the 3:1 mix with plain Cordovan, allowing the leather color to influence the brown a little more.  For my eye that combo make a really pleasing dye.

Not trying to argue, rather I guess I'm suggesting alternatives if you find other blends aren't quite hitting the color you want.  It might well be that a blend of oxblood/cordovan/reducer gives the best reddish brown of all for your eye, but I haven't tried it.

As for TC's great little double pouch, I found the dimensions in the pattern too small for my chunky hands, but enlarging the pattern slightly took care of my fist tangles without producing a bag that was bulky.  Increasing the width by 1" did the job, while keeping the same depth helped keep the bag "small" while providing plenty of space for the small kit I carry in it.  

I got curious about that center seam and made a bag with a fold there instead.  Won't do that again.  Once the wider bag was broken in, the seamless center fold tends to collapse in the middle and jumble the contents, while the seamed version provides just the right stiffness to prevent it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 06:40:30 PM by BrownBear »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 07:14:13 PM »
BrownBear,

No sense of argument was taken.  There's always more than one way to skin a cat.  Grin.

I've used British Tan in mixtures over the years and I have found the yellowish color part of it will show through too much for my taste even mixed with cordovan.   That's why I switched to Oxblood when I wanted more reddish hue.  

You make a good point about the reducer to thin out the coats.  That would also allow one to build up the color as desired.   I didn't mention that only because now we are talking about three or more bottles of dye/stuff one has to get for one project.  However, one could get a bottle of rubbing alcohol and use that as a reducer.  Heck, I've used acetone as a reducer before and it worked quite well.  

Another way to build up color is to use the throw away sponge type brushes that are pretty cheap.  This is the more modern version of when we used to cut down sponges to apply the dye.  What I do is wear kitchen dish gloves and after dipping the sponge brush into the dye, squeeze most of the dye out.   Then wipe my gloved hands off with a small wad of paper towels.  (Forgot to wipe my gloved hands one time and sure as shootin touched the leather with s drizzle of dye when I didn't want that much at one time.)   Then apply with a soft touch.  Makes it easy to blend color over wider bits of leather and you don't apply too much dye at once.  

For a long time, I kept the end scrap piece of a leather strap with different hues of color dye on it and with a finish coat on top.  Then I stamped numbers in the different hues and had the "recipe" mixtures for the hues written down.  I showed that to people and even then they wanted something "in between."  So I would further adjust the recipe for that job.

Gus
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 07:15:02 PM by Artificer »

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Double Pouch
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 12:54:09 AM »
The light just went on.  :oI had not even thought about stitching the two inside pieces together first. I am going to do that and then install them "upside down" so to speak. When the bag is turned I will have the center seam for stiffness but it won't have the folded seam like it would if stitched normally and then turned with the rest of the bag.