Author Topic: Auction containing original long rifles  (Read 9432 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Auction containing original long rifles
« on: February 03, 2010, 06:25:06 AM »
I received the following notice of an auction containing a number of original pieces that ALR members may have interest in.  I have no connection to the auction nor means to purchase anything.  (Moderators, if this is inappropriate, please delete.)
"I am sending you this email in the hope that you or someone you know may have an interest in my father’s 50 year gun collection which is being auctioned off on Feb. 26-27, 2010 by Morphy’s Auctions.
His collection includes some 40 Kentucky rifles, more than a dozen early Springfield Civil War rifles known as “1903s,” . . . . . . and other items too numerous to list.
I have provided this linK that will take you directly to the auction site. Please feel free to forward this email to anyone you know who might be interested in the sale.   
http://www.morphyauctions.com/auctions/collections    "

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

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jwh1947

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 11:36:53 PM »
There is a C. Baum flint (??)with more silver bangles than a date-service-administrator's Cadillac. Also a couple of longrifles sporting percussion locks, probably conversions, but can't tell from pics.  Nowhere near the number of the last batch.   Pics in brochure are more of Springfields and modern stuff.  If I get a chance I'll drive down, scope it out and give you an update. 

keweenaw

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 01:00:26 AM »
The online catalog is pretty go at describing the situation on the locks, converted, replaced, etc.  I believe that said the flintlock in the Baum while original was a replacement of the perc. lock the rifle was built with.  Lots of parts guns in the list, original patch boxes on later built guns.  A number of contemporary pieces at estimates well below what we would pay for the parts.

Online rf50cal

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 02:12:24 AM »
Can you just stop by Morphy's during their regular business hours to see these rifles or do you have to make prior arrangements?  I hope to get to Reading again before the exhibit closes and it wouldn't be that far out of the way to stop by Morphy's on the same trip.
Roger Fleisher

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 02:16:11 AM »
There is a C. Baum flint (??)with more silver bangles than a date-service-administrator's Cadillac. Also a couple of longrifles sporting percussion locks, probably conversions, but can't tell from pics.  Nowhere near the number of the last batch.   Pics in brochure are more of Springfields and modern stuff.  If I get a chance I'll drive down, scope it out and give you an update.  

My thought on the Baum was that it reminded me of some of the tattooed guys you see on the NBA hardwood these days..........
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Offline Spotz

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 04:24:52 AM »
What am I missing with Lot 409?  I see nothing Baum or Samuel Laudenslager about this rifle. 


jwh1947

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 06:39:09 AM »
rf50cal.  Call first, but there has always been someone there whenI stopped by.  Adamstown, very close to Reading exchange, PA Turnpike.

jwh1947

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 08:27:08 AM »
Just saw the on-line catalog and will probably not devote the time to a trip.  I love the patchbox job on the supposed Hoffman.  It's hilarious.  I doubt if the boys at Dixon's would even give it a green booby-prize participant's ribbon.  This couldn't be Dauphin work...maybe farther up the river. :D ;D :D

One description, "Basically this rifle will make an excellent hanger for...someone...who doesn't want to spend a lot of money."  Subtract adjective "excellent" and that would be my sentiments for most of them.

There will be blood let over the Baum/Laudenslager Christmas tree and maybe over the Drepperd.  Lots of creative composites and choppers, by their own definition, otherwise.  If it's a nice day and momma wants me to clean the windows, maybe the auction will be a good excuse, otherwise  I'll probably drink some rakija and beat the dog.

Offline JTR

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 09:37:16 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve ever seen such a collection of enhanced and composite rifles in one place, ever.
Someone with some excess money should buy them all, then strip off the original hardware and sell the parts on ebay.
It’s guns like these that give honest restoration a bad name.
Just my 2 bits,
John
John Robbins

Offline TPH

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 09:40:47 PM »
Morphy needs a far better expert to assist in ID on long rifles..............

You've got to wonder about the "expert" when it comes to the other guns as well. Here's the quote that bothers me: "more than a dozen early Springfield Civil War rifles known as “1903s,” " Of course that quote comes from the person that contacted Larry but it looks like there is a lot of confusion about many of the guns being sold.

*Edit* Looked a little more and there are some decent CW era military guns in the collection but the son/daughter does not know much about guns. Hope they are satisfied with the results of the sale of Dad's collection.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 09:47:13 PM by TPH »
T.P. Hern

jwh1947

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 10:08:33 PM »
Scooter, my sentiments exactly.  But, 'ya know?  They will probably sell at prices that, for but a few dollars more, they could have had something actually decent.  Wayne

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 11:06:29 PM »
Of course that quote comes from the person that contacted Larry but it looks like there is a lot of confusion about many of the guns being sold.

*Edit* Looked a little more and there are some decent CW era military guns in the collection but the son/daughter does not know much about guns. Hope they are satisfied with the results of the sale of Dad's collection.

I suppose I should explain something.  I get a couple of these requests a week.  Some on a single gun; some on a collection.  At first I tried to help each by giving information or by helping to find someone near the person who could help.  Sometimes it backfires.  Sometimes you just shake your head, as in: 
I got this gun from my????. It has engraving on it.  Can you tell me what it's worth?

In the case of this auction, I decided to post the email.  I figured if there was anything here that was worth something, you fellows could find it.  The email also mentioned the sxs shotguns and a bunch of model 70 Win. which I deleted.  The next one of these I see, I may send it to a moderator to look over and post if it seems warranted.
Regards,
Pletch
   
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline JTR

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 04:49:17 AM »
Pletch, I appreciate your posting the information, and I hope you to continue to.
At the last Morphy auction I bid on several guns, but was outbid in the end. I wouldn't have know about the auction if it wasn't for this site, so appreciate the heads up.
John
John Robbins

Offline TPH

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 05:03:13 AM »
Larry, don't let what I said get you down, personally I enjoyed looking and learned some things from the statements made by others. An auction is a necessary thing when an old collection is broken up and the family is not interested. It was interesting and a good source of discussion, we appreciate the effort..
T.P. Hern

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2010, 05:26:09 AM »
TPH, JTR,
Thanks for your comments.  I didn't worry about this.  The auction is one that there is hopefully a gem among the rest.  The talent on ALR will surely find it if it's there.  If the gem isn't there, maybe it will be the next time.  I suppose that all of us hope for the time when we manage to uncover that unknown gem that surfaces in front of us.  It seems to happen just often enough to keep us looking.

In the mean time I'm happy looking at the great stuff our contemporary ALR makers are turning out. 

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

jwh1947

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2010, 05:03:25 AM »
Those of you who have seen a few guns in your lifetime, look at the architecture and characteristics of the Chirstmas tree gun and tell me whether you think the piece actually started out as a flint.  I don' t profess to know a lot about the glitterati era of gunsmithing, but I'd want to look at more than a picture on this one.  Wayne

Offline Curt J

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 05:21:18 AM »
I'd be inclined to think that it started life as a percussion. Forty or fifty years ago, collectors often "re-converted" rifles that were never flint in the first place.  Personally, I see a lot of Laudenslager in this rifle and little if any Baum. 

Offline Spotz

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Re: Auction containing original long rifles
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2010, 05:04:37 AM »
I tend to side with Mark Twain, here, that "[e]ducation is the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty."  With any unsigned rifle, we are left with a guess, but hopefully an educated one at that.  I am hearing a lot of conclusions, here, as we often tend to do, but I think it is important to walk through the analysis of how we arrive at the conclusions.  To answer Wayne, this rifle seems late, with its decoration, for a flintlock piece.  Thus, I tend to think it is reasonable to conclude that this rifle started out as a percussion (and will likely return to that state within a few months).  I am still not comfortable with a Laudenslager attribution.  Yes, there is a Laudenslager inlay and patchbox finial, but a patchbox finial and inlay is not enough.  The "arrow" inlays and number of inlays pushed me in the direction of Huntingdon County when I first viewed the rifle, and the patchbox, "Indian" inlay and "Charles Baum" mustache sideplate (here, with piercing and an odd shape at each end) pushed me back east to Snyder County. 

The Lewisburg show this weekend provided me with an opportunity to pick many minds about this piece and I heard an attribution that sounded quite interesting to me...Peter Smith (a maker with an Upper Susquehanna start and a relatively prolific career in Huntingdon County).  There are signed Smiths with similar inlays, including the man/Indian.  Then, again, there is at least one signed Siegfried piece out there with an "Indian" and ax to the side.  Wetzel and Frock each built at least one rifle with an eagle patchbox finial.  We know about Laudenslager and we can't rule out others.  It is unfortunate we did not discuss all of the possibilities.  Unless it is signed, we are left in miserable uncertainty.