2010 ~ 200 Yard Patched Round Ball Match

[Candle Snuffer]

2010 ~ 200 Yard ~ Patched Round Ball Match
This Match Will Run From March 1, 2010 ~ thru ~ September 30, 2010

(Report results here on this site. Post a picture or two if you'd like
but it's not mandatory. We'll take your word on how you did)

(You May Enter 3 Scores From March 1 ~thru~ Septemebr 30, 2010)
Please post your results in this fashion;

Name - Candle Snuffer
Relay 1 - 5 Shots Offhand (Score)
Relay 2 - 5 Shots [Your Choice From Prone ~ Kneeling~ or Setting] (Score)
Total - (Score)

200 Yards
Patched Round Ball Only - Flint or Percussion Ignition
Open Iron Sights

Scoring;

Bullseye - 5 Points
Inner - 3 Points
Outer - 1 Point

***Click Link Below For Target Picture***

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3533.msg33063#msg33063

[Brian Jordan]

Sounds like fun!!

[bdixon]

I think I will try this out, just got new glasses.

[Daryl]

We had a change early on and the target should look like this...  However, you can use your own color schemes for the scoring areas of what you can see best.  I'll probably just stay with these colors.



The overall target is 22" x 28"

Outer - White area - "Outside" of Black 12" x 12" Center - 1 Point

Center -  Black 12" x 12" - "Outside" of White Bullseye  - 3 Points

Bullseye -  White 5" x 5" - "Inside" Black Center - Point Value 5 points

Ball hole must be "half in" to get the next highest scoring area point value.

EXAMPLE OF SCORING:

Reading the target below from left to right;

The Red Dot = 5 points as it is 1/2 in the higher scoring value of the Bullseye.

The Blue Dot = 5 points as it is in the Bullseye completely.

The Yellow Dot = 3 points as it is "not" half in the Bullseye - but rather over half
in the Center.

The next Yellow Dot = 3 points as it is mostly in the black Center.

The Red Dot = 1 point as it is clearly in the white Outer.

[Daryl]

I have sticky'ed this thread and unstuck the other, so this one will stay, and the other will go to past threads, hopefully.

[Brian Jordan]

I am guessing that, that size paper is something you can buy already that size. Like a poster board?

[Candle Snuffer]

I am guessing that, that size paper is something you can buy already that size. Like a poster board?

Yes it is.  Poster board is 22x28 inches.  It was decided to use something common that all of us should have access to so we could make our own targets.  Last year when we did this match as part of a learning/test of what we could expect from the patched round ball at 200 yards, it was interesting.  Well worth looking up last year's thread on this.

Enjoy the game my friends.  This is both fun and challenging.

Here is a link to the 2009 ~ 200 Yard Round Ball Match;

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3533.0

Also, here are the scores that were shot in 2009;

Daryl - 27/50
Taylor - 20/50
Snuffer - 14/50

[westerner]

This sounds like fun! Ive never shot a round ball at 200. 


               Joe.

             

[J.D.]

This sounds like fun! Ive never shot a round ball at 200. 

I haven't either. I can't see a round ball at 200 yards, much less shoot one. I have shot a few round balls at targets set at 200 yards though. 

Last years target was a total bust. This years target might get a few hits...once the snow melts enough, and the wind lays enough to so's I can get to the range and actually expect to hit something.

God bless

[Daryl]

Best to get a sight picture off the bench- holding the gun tightly in the fore hand, resting the left hand (right hander) on sandbags or a soft surface with good height.  A rear bag is not needed and sometimes tricky with a longrifle's butt shape. Learn how much front sight has to be held above the rear. This is where a 6 o'clock hold can come in handy, depending on the available light.
If you are used to shooting light loads in your gun, try adding 50% more powder - but watch for patches to make sure they are maintaining their integrity and not gas cutting or burning when using heavier charges.
Swithcing to 2f can increase accuracy due to the lower pressure generated being easier on patches.
These suggestions are mainly to try to help guys so we can get more participants this year.

[longcruise]

I guess this is a really dumb question, but is the poster board 22" high by 28" wide or

[longcruise]

Also, I made square centers for this match last year (never got to the range to shoot) and still have them in pdf form.  They are large black square and small white square or large red square and small yellow square.  If anybody wants the pdf file, send me a pm with your email address.

Actually, I can easily customize colors on these so if you want to specify a color, that can be done too. 

[Daryl]

Normally, long range targets were of this rectangular profile - and were placed, as for this one, 28" wide, X 22" tall.  If you want it 28" tall and 22" wide, I guess that's up to you, I'd think.  Do you have more vertical challenge than horizontal - or visavis? Not my contest, so perhaps Candle Snuffer might respond if this is a bone of contention.

[Candle Snuffer]

I'd say place the target at 200 yards which best suits your shooting style.  This match started life out to just see if it were possible to hit consistently at 200 yards, so horizontal or vertical - what ever works best for you.

[longcruise]

Snuffer, thanks for that clarification.  Kinda hard to decide which way would be best.  The little bit of 200 yard (actually meters) shooting I've done has been at silhouettes.  I suppose a windy day would give wide an advantage.  Hah! Such hairsplitting.  Maybe I'll send one of the grand kids out to 200 without instructions and shoot whatever they put up.

[Candle Snuffer]

You're welcome Mike.  It's a challenge, no doubt about it.  I struggled with a .45 last year and couldn't muster a very good score though I did have 9 hits on the target - 8 of which I counted using the half or better ball in the scoring ring method.

I'm going to try it again this year with the same rifle and also some other rifles of .50 and .54 caliber.  The heavier ball should carry better.  Here's last year's target I shot.  Good luck and enjoy the challenge.
 

[longcruise]

Well, Snuffer, I can tell you that having meistered our assn ml sihouette match last August (chickens 50 meters, pigs 100 meters, turkeys 150 meters and rams 200 meters) that you have done a dang fine job of shooting right there!!! 

If you mosey this way on August 22 this year and join the shoot you will for sure turn some heads!  Bring a bunch of shooters with you.  We need the money!! <LOL>

[Candle Snuffer]

Thanks Mike, you never know - someday I might just make it over your way.  It do sound like lots of fun!

Daryl, and Taylor Sapergia, out shot me on this match last year by a country mile.  Those guys can shoot!

PM me, or post some information if you would as to where you guys are located Mike.

[yip]

      okay whats the trick?shooting 200 yds is a real pain, i hold my front sight higher, i hitting low i hold high off the target i'm still low! my rifle is 50 cal with a 70 gr of 2f. whats the secret?

[Daryl]

70gr. is not enough powder in my opinion.  Were I shooting a little .50, I'd be using 110 to 125gr. 2F.  Taylor didn't do too badly using only about 85gr., but had he used more, he'd have had better accuracy - of that I am certain.  The reason his accuracy would have been better, is he uses a very snug patch/ball combintion, so the extra pressure wouldn't destroy his patch and therefore accuracy. The extra sped allows the ball to hold accuracy longer, just as the lightest load that gives good accuracy at 25 yards, but fails at 50 and 75. So too does a 50/75 yard load fail at 150 to 200yards.

The reason to use 2f over 3F is the lower pressure at the same velocity.  We find no difference in fouling - due to the ball and patch combinations we use- the fouling never builds up as it's all wiped down each time we load.

The muzzleloading round ball bench rest shooters know it takes a LOT of powder to get good accuracy at the longer ranges, so they don't hold themselves to 25 and 50 yard loads.

The more powder you put in, the less sight you have to hold - as long as your ball and patch combination is up to the pressure and velocity.  Trying some of the heavier loads and checking patches is the only way to find out. Once you find a ball and patch combination that will withstand the pressure, you may have to try a few makes and/or thicknesses a wee bit tighter yet before finding the one that gives the best accuracy.

Taylor and I used to shoot at 325 yards at a range in the lower mainland of BC with all our round ball guns - even my wife's little .36, although the 128gr. slugs were more accurate that far out. We learned quickly how much sight it took and were very consistant at that range. We also could see in those days. - HA!

Fun, A.  I love load development.

[Candle Snuffer]

Sound wisdom from Daryl and Taylor's approach - no doubt about it.

My approach is a bit different and perhaps unorthodox, but it works for me because of where I live (4000 ft above sea level & very low humidity in the Summer months).  I also use to shoot a lot of long range gongs at our local Range out to 200 yards.

What I found that works best for me (and this is just me), I use one charge in my .45, (though here lately I've been experimenting with other charges), but,,, for me and 200 yards - one charge (65 grains - 3fg).  

According to the Lyman Black Powder Handbook (put together on the east coast at around 800+ ft above sea level & high humidity) - my load should drop 48.53 inches...  It doesn't.  My load drops in the neighborhood of 24 - 28 inches.

Therefore I know my target is 28" wide so I just try to hold over the target the same height as the target is wide, (sometimes I have to hold a bit higher - but if my first shot is on, I can judge from there where to hold).  I shoot windage and elevation best guess and most the time it'll get me on paper.  Not the scores that Daryl and Taylor are getting, but when shooting a 200 yard - 24" gong it doesn't matter where the ball meets the metal as a hit is a hit.  

Same holds true for the paper target, but here points do count, though I'm more concerned of just getting as many rounds on target rather then what my final score reads.

Good advise Daryl.  Thought I'd just offer up how I do it out in the center of the U.S.A., (or close to center)....  

[Brian Jordan]

Daryl, & Snuffer,

Question for you. I shoot a .50 cal.  hawken rifle with a 28" barrel. Would I still benefit from increasing my charge to 110-125 grains to shoot 200 yards? I shoot my trail walk with 50 grains of FFg thru the whole course with targets from 10 yards to just past a hundred? I am asking because I am not sure all the powder will burn up in my short barrel if I increase the charge.

Thanks Guys

[Daryl]

Melsdad - I started off with a 28" .50 and my most accurate loads for it at 100 yards was 110gr. of 2F.  I used a .495" ball and .022" denim patch.  Some folks say they have difficulty loading that combination. The reason I used such a tight load, was to get accuracy in the .004" deep rifling the gun had.  With normal round ball rifling of .010" to .012" deep, that combination would become a normal, easy loading combination.  It is tight in .004" rifling, and needs a good chamfer at the muzzle to get everything swaging properly.

[YORKTOWNE54]

Has anyone ever not held proud at 200 yds with fixed sights? If so what was the combo. Would it be possible in the larger calibers to increase enough FF so as to hold dead nuts on?

[Daryl]

You have to hold 'proud', unless you have an Express Sight on your English sporting Rifle that has a leaf filed for that range.  Most round ball  muzzleloaders with mulitiple leaf sights were of large bore and sighted only to 100 or 150yards.

Holding the front sight along with some barrel, 'proud' of the top flat of the rear sight is the normal method of long range shooting with a ML - not holding the sights over the target.  This is the same system used by long range modern handgun shooters/hunters - sight for 100 and hold the front sigth 'proud' for longer distances - this takes a lot of pracitise, but is the method Taylor and I learned 40 years ago, with both muzzleloaders and our .45 and .44 handguns at that time.  Then, we were doing a lot of shooting at 325 yards with round ball guns, .50 and .62 cal.

IF you had extremely high fixed sights - say 1" above the bore and was normally sighted for 50 yards, it probably would be possible to increase the powder charge enough to get a 150 yard zero.  A 50 yard charge might be initself sighted for both 50 and 100, just as normal low sights are sighted for both 25 and 50yards

To find a spot that will give consistant results, you could 'repare' to a range that allowed 200 yard or further shooting with your rifle. Take some tape with your of some sort - must be quite visible on your barrel's top surface, like 1" wide masking tape or white medical adhesive tape.

I would put a strip across the top flat about 4" behind the front sight and when looking through the rear sight, I'd hold that white 'band' (it looks a lot narrower) on the top edge of the rear sight, the fornt sight on the target or at 6 o'clock and see where that hits.  Move the strip of tape as needed to find how much barrel is needed above the rear sight's flat.  The longer the barrel, the more barrel will have to be held proud. You could experiment with the width of the tape to see what looks best.