Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?

[flintriflesmith]

I think this is deserving of a new thread so as not to highjack the other one about serious modern engraving.

For years the KRA show had a competition between the antique rifles on display and one category was "Best engraved rifle." I always wondered if they meant "the best rifle that is engraved" OR "the rifle with the best engraving."

Hopefully this will be a bit clearer and, if people take the time to explain what it is about the maker's engraving that makes it the "best," it should provide some interesting discussion of technique, style, coverage, originality, etc.

Gary

[jwh1947]

Kuntz was graceful; Fordney deep and pronounced.  Both impressive but completely different.

[Majorjoel]

The engraving work of John Shell of Dauphin Co. is some of my favorite. He built many rifles that have survived. Many quite plain with hardware store parts, but his folky style of engraving would turn them into very interesting and desireable works of art. He was also very capable of building a masterpiece from scratch with all the right bells and whistles. He is one of the few makers I could identify unsigned from his engraving alone.

[Lucky R A]

      Although often times overlooked some of the Western Pennsylvania makers were true masters of engraving.   Examine some of John Fleeger's work up close and personal.   The eagle on his cheekpiece oval, has super fine individually cut shading lines that are certainly the work of a master.  He was also capable of very bold and expressive cuts as well as super shading. 

[Clowdis]

I don't think that John Vogler (Old Salem, NC school) would take a back seat to anyone. In addition to being a gunmaker he was also a silversmith and his work on both is outstanding.

[WElliott]

I agree about Vogler. And I would add that Wiley Higgins of Georgia, who was also a silversmith, was a wonderful engraver.  He engraved very sparingly, but tastefully.

[Swampwalker]

First would have to be Kuntz - his work is flowing, covers much of the surface, excellent use of shading, and, on his nicer pieces, well executed, using large scrolls and floral features.  Second for me would be F. Sheetz.  Very different than Kuntz, with much smaller scrolls, but very graceful and well designed.  I particularly like Sheetz's use of different gravers to achieve a varied effect.

[Jim Kibler]

I like this sort of question.  Don't know if I have a favorite, but I've long admired George Eister's engraving.  It's well executed, but the design is what makes it special.  It's very loose, free flowing and certainly unique.  Just take a look at the toe plate shown in Kindig's.  Fantastic to my eye!  Here's my attempt at a box made in Eister's style.  I'm going to build another Eister sometime.  Still can't help but to be drawn to his work. Think I can do a little better job today.
 
 

[Mike Gahagan]

My choices would be G. Eister,John Noll and Martin Fry.All three had a delicate hand with an eye for beautiful designs.Eister and Noll also had a great ability to carry the same skills over to their carving which made for a more beautiful gun.

[smshea]

For me... Kuntz or N. Hawk.... Kind of a toss up! Not sure they are the best but I like theirs the best.

[lexington1]

Here's a lesser known choice for me, John Lauck of Virginia. 

[flintriflesmith]

This seems to be in danger of turning into "I like ..." instead the question I hoped we could discuss, "I believe ... was the best engraver because..."

Not everyone has fallen into making this a popularity contest and I especially appreciate the thoughtful replies from most of the early repondants. 

I'm hoping to set up some links to some of the details y'all have commented on. If any of you have close up photos that illustrate the skills you are discussing please include them.

Here's a link to one:
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/attrib.to.kuntz.htm

Gary

[J. Talbert]

Of those I'm familiar with, (admittedly I'm not as well versed as many here), I would argue that Kuntz and Eister are among the best.  Though their styles are quite different, they both use well designed, artful patterns and execute them expertly using a varied assortment of techniques.

Jeff

[smylee grouch]

Jacob Kuntz would get my vote because I like his engraving and so did other gunsmiths of his time acording to some of the more knowlegable gun people of this time. R.L.Wilson to name one. He was in a class by himself acording to Kindig. Thanks for opening up this can of worms as there will be lots of different opinions. Gary

[smallpatch]

Gary,

Take a look at John Bonewitz work.  The design, detail,  graceful flow, quality of shape and shading.  Just outstanding.  It almost completely overshadows the rest of the gun.  I have looked at the photos that Taylor had posted over and over again, and I just can't remember the rest of the gun at all.  I just keep getting drawn back to that patchbox and all them pretty scratches.

[JTR]

Two I like are Nicolas Hawk, and Henry Spitzer.
Both had personal styles, and used more or less original designs. Both also generally had a light touch with the graver.
Hawk used the same design elements on most of his later guns, but varied a bit on his earlier ones.

Hawk didn't include the 'face' he usually included on the finale of this patchbox.




Henry Spitzer used some simple elements, but also added some original design elements as well.



The patchbox release is the engraved button on this toe plate.



John

[Majorjoel]

John Shell, one of my favorite engravers. 

[TXEBONY]

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/GunshopEraGuns/gusler_reed_pistol.htm

Stealing from your site Gary.  I don't know the background on this particular piece, but I believe it's the best engraving I've seen so far granted I'm a newnor.  I would imagine current engravers are the best because they have unlimited access to artwork and the luxury of time, tools, and more money.

[Fullstock longrifle]

Great question Gary.  Several excellent engravers have been already mentioned by others, and I agree that those gunsmiths are are the top of the list.  But once again I have to throw John Armstrong's name into the pool, He did fine engraving and his work was consistent.

I'd like to throw a question back at you though.  Do you think some of the prolific gunsmiths used whitesmiths or transient Journeymen to do their engraving work?  That subject has been tossed around for a while now, but I've never heard anything conclusive one way or the other.

Frank

[Curt J]

One also wonders how many gunsmiths relied upon the jeweller two doors down the street, to engrave the guns he made.  We may never know for sure.

I have two other nominees for you, both of whom ended up way out here on the frontier, at a very early date.  They are: Philip Creamer, from Taneytown, Maryland, who arrived in St. Clair County, Illinois, circa 1806. Creamer made sets of pistols for such notables as Andrew Jackson, John C. Calhoun, and others. The engraving on his pistols particularly, is second to none.

 The other nominee would be John Small, born in Ireland, believed to have worked in Virginia, before his arrival in Vincennes, Indiana, during the 1780's. A silversmith as well as a gunsmith, Small's engraving is superb, along with all of the other details of his work. Small made rifles for such notables as Col. Francis Vigo, William Clark, and Pierre Menard.

[Dave B]

I put my vote on John Noll for his engraving style and orignality. He shows great skill in his design and execution with out being repetitive. Of the rifles shown in the TKRGA none of them are same with regards to the patchboxes design or engraving.  I only wish I could find better pictures of his work.

[Robby]

I agree with Dave B, for pretty much the same reasons.
Robby

[B Shipman]

I would have to go with Martin Fry, G. Eister and Jacob Kuntz. Fry's carving on many guns is so inferior to his engraving in design that I question that he ever did it.
Eister's carving and engraving flow so well together and are so unique and influential that he gets top marks in my book. Kuntz designs are probably and consistently the most interesting of any and beautiflly done.

[Stan]

John Noll - Fabulous design & even better execution.   Stan

[keweenaw]

Gary,

 Geeze, give us something difficult to do.  In my mind good engraving has a variety of elements: execution, effect, appropriateness and consistency.  Execution to me means was it well cut, lines clean, etc.  Effect means it's art with great composition and basically that it reaches out and grabs me.  Appropriateness means its correct for that firearm in that period.  Consistency means it harmonizes with the rest of the firearm, its architecture and other decorative elements.  Clearly Eister was a master in all of these regards - great execution, tremendous effect, etc.  Here are some photos of a patchbox and sideplate of one of his rifles:




Bonewitz was no slouch in this regard either.  I apologize for the quality of the photo.  This is one of the truly great rifles, in absolutely original condition.  It's in the collection of the Minneapolis Institute of Arts but it's in a case with a very ho-hum Dickert and poorly lighted.  I found it impossible to get workable photos of the cheek side, which has wonderful carving because it's in the shadow of the Dickert.  The engraving on the PB can also reach out and grab you despite the 200 years of patina.


Tom