Author Topic: Not enough lube??  (Read 5608 times)

beleg2

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Not enough lube??
« on: February 05, 2010, 12:30:01 AM »
I have found that on shooting Maxis and REALs some crude accumulate about 8” from the muzzle.
When I push the bullet through the barrel it looks like a tight spot, as I pass it is easy again.
I found this in both rifles, the Kodiak .58” (REAL) using 110 gn of FFFg. And the .50 UH (MaxiHunter) 70 gn of same powder.
Vaseline/BeeWax as lube.
I suspect the problem is no enough lube as I do not lube lower groove of MH.

Thanks
Martin

roundball

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 02:38:43 AM »
I don't know if or how you're wiping between shots...but if you are, here's one possibility.
If you're wiping between shots and running the patch down and up a couple or three cycles before pulling the cleaning patch all the way up out of the barrel, you could be depositing (building up) fouling at the end of each upstroke in that few inches just inside the muzzle.

beleg2

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 03:05:36 AM »
Oops.
Sorry for the confusion. I always miss some info >:(
I'm not wiping between shots.
Just drop next charge and bullet.

Offline longcruise

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 10:03:17 AM »
That is an area of the bore where leading will typically show up.  Try wiping thoroughly between shots and if you still have a bit tight right there it could be lead.
Mike Lee

The other DWS

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 02:10:30 PM »
I suspect that when shooting lubed or paper patched conical bullets/slugs out of muzzle loaders we may have a lot in common with the BPCR guys in terms of bullet lube knowledge.  I know I will be gong back and looking at their lube knowledge base when I start shooting my percussion schuetzen rifle more in the Spring.

Based on what I have read, when I was studying the black powder cartridge rifle forums in the past, it sounds like you may be running out of lube on those bullets before you are running out of barrel.  this might lead to a little bit of initial lead build up and make a foundation for a fouling build up at that point.  I know the BPCR guys like to have a little bit of a fouling/lube "star" showing on the end of their barrels as evidence they are good lube coverage the full length of the bore.
 
I'd probably look at really cleaning the bores while carefully looking for an lead deposits, then either using a bit more lube or a lube with a bit more "carry" to it---perhaps a slightly higher grease to wax ratio

FWIW, I have a vague recollection of "problems" using petroleum products in lubes for Black powder guns--something about petroleum / black powder fouling being real hard to get out.
  I don't know if this is correct or just "traditional-myth". 
You might try more of a natural fat/wax based lube.  I use an emulsified lanolin/beeswax lube when shooting grooved bullets in BP rifles and muzzleloaders.  I used the same mix, with more lanolin in it, when greasing pre-cut patches for my round ball gun as well


Daryl

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 06:34:41 PM »
While it's true that petrolium and black powder don't mix, Vaseline and beeswax, roughly 60/40 or 65/35 worked just great in my ctg. guns and allowed up to 20 shots without any fouling buildup using paper patched bullets and a single grease cookie. Shooting 120gr. 2f in a .45 rifle, usually won't allow 5 shots with any lube, let alone 20- so the lube was working just great.

Some mix neetsfootoil or olive oil, or other veggie cooking oil instead of vaseline and say that works too.

A crusty 'section' only is interesting. This makes me wonder if there is a rough spot in the bore promoting fouling buildup. Normally, a bullet/lube situation will foul near the breech meaning too hard a lube, or at the muzzle, not enough lube, but to foul in the middle are back from the muzzle 8", is strange - has no meaning other than the bore might be a bit rough there.  Fouling the full length means an unsuitable lube, as would happen with an alox-type lube modern smokeless lube and black powder.

I shoot patched round balls in my Kodiak. No fouling problems and unlimited shooting without having to wipe.  I was going to try bullets, but have resisted so far.

Martin, did you get the lead out of your rifle's butt? :D
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 06:37:16 PM by Daryl »

TXEBONY

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 06:39:06 PM »
That's what she said.  ;D

beleg2

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 06:58:59 PM »

Thank for all advises.
I will clean the rifles with steel wool to take all lead out and shoot again.
Daryl,
REALs works fine in my Kodiak, if you try them I promise to try round balls again. ;)
Yes, I took the lead out and the Kodiak feels much lighter.

TXE  ;D ;D

Daryl

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 07:32:41 PM »
It's a deal!

Offline Ted Kramer

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 09:10:23 PM »
beleg2,

I do a lot of BPCR shooting and in the process of finding what worked and what didn't,  I had the same type of problem with a .40/70  Sharps Straight that you are experiencing with your m/l rifle. As it turned out, my bullet was not carrying enough lube to successfully keep the fouling soft during the 32" trip from breech to muzzle. I added a 1/8" thick grease cookie between the over powder card wad and the bullet (sandwiched in waxed paper wads to keep it from sticking to the bullet).  This worked and the hard fouling near the muzzle went away. But it was a real PITA loading the cartridges with all this extra stuff and besides, it took up space that could otherwise be used for powder. Changing to a bullet with more lube capacity did the trick.

In your case, you could try a few rounds with an over powder waxed paper wad, then a grease- cookie, another waxed paper wad, then the bullet and see if the extra lube helps. This will be a PITA with a m/l gun too. However, I would first try some different lube, SPG or any of several made for BPCR's and see if that would solve your problem.

Good luck with it.

Ted K

roundball

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 09:22:35 PM »
Another alternative is to just try a bag of Oxyoke .58cal prelubed wool OP wads...as a lubed 'Firewall', they also protect the base of a bullet from any fire melting, etc

Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2010, 01:16:20 AM »
Maxis and REALs would be known in the BPCR world as "greasewagons".  In other words you aren't going to get a bullet design capable of carrying much more grease without sacrificing bearing surface.

Trying a different lube might be helpful.  When I read the OP the first thing that struck me was the hefty dose of FFFg in a .58.  If that was not a typo, 110 grains of FFFg might not be the best for a .58.

I would think the fine granulation would create a more rapid pressure spike.  With a pure lead bullet, especially ones with as little bearing surface as you've got, a slow and easy acceleration would probably be beneficial.   

It might be that something is happening with the violent acceleration caused by the FFFg charge that is blowing the lube out of the grooves prematurely.  Excessive obturation?  Gas blowby?  I dunno.  But maybe if you could get your hands on some Fg or 1 1/2 Fg (Swiss) it would solve the probelm.

beleg2

  • Guest
Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2010, 04:23:19 AM »
Thanks to all.

Unfortunately FFFg is the only powder you can get here (Argentina). It is not much powerfull but works fine.
I have to use 110 gn in order to get the barrels shoot together (it is a double rifle). Accuracy is good for me, about 2" offhand at 55 yds.
As I promise to Daryl  ;) I will try RB (as soon as I can find where I put them >:(). So pressure should be lower.

Thanks
Martin

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2010, 08:42:39 PM »
If you are stuck on slugs to get good regulation, try SPG or Lyman's BP Gold for lube, or you might have to use a grease cookie.  The Vas/Beeswax, mixed hard enough to make a good disk, could be loaded onto the powder by itself and will not hurt the powder - if it is fairly hard. You'll have to experiment with this, Martin.  You can make a lube disk cutter out of brass tubing, the fit-together tubing with .015" walls.  Pour the mixed lube into a tray, about 1/8" deep and let it harden. Then use the brass tube with sharpened end to cut disks of lube.  They can be easily separated after cutting a number of them, then pushing them out the tube.  A mix of 50/50 BW/Vas might work.

Offline rick landes

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Re: Not enough lube??
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2010, 08:04:03 PM »
I have found that on shooting Maxis and REALs some crude accumulate about 8” from the muzzle.
When I push the bullet through the barrel it looks like a tight spot, as I pass it is easy again.
I found this in both rifles, the Kodiak .58” (REAL) using 110 gn of FFFg. And the .50 UH (MaxiHunter) 70 gn of same powder.
Vaseline/BeeWax as lube.
I suspect the problem is no enough lube as I do not lube lower groove of MH.

Thanks
Martin


I think your load lacks consistency...This will help some I think...When you seat the projectile use a slightly moist patch (w/moose milk or the like) to wipe and equally help lube this upper end of your barrel. The greater consistency of the lube throughout the barrel and the removal of some of the fouling should bring things more in line.
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