Thoughts on Triggers.

[northmn]

Kind of getting bored and have a 40 mile one way drive to work.  Too much time to think.  What I have always found interesting is the amount of extra money spent on barrels, questions on which are best etc.  My experiences have been that most barrels out shoot the shooter.  The biggest contribution to accuracy and use for me has always been the trigger pull, given that the lock is adequate for reliability and speed, which do exist now at reasonable prices.  
At first glance I have always felt that the simple single trigger makes the best hunting rifle.  For a larger game rifle I still do.  when I put together my 25 squirrel rifle I used a DST because I had one left over from years ago, did not have to buy one, and they are more correct for a Tennessee rifle.  Considering that squirrel heads are small targets, in this case, I think maybe they make a good hunting rifle.  It is a double throw trigger in which you can fire the rifle with the trigger set or unset.  I have a rifle with a single throw trigger, which worked great on targets but is a real PITA in the woods and for general use.  You have to set the trigger to lower the hammer.  
When I target shot, a fellow shooter and builder, insisted that the single trigger was the only way to go.  Those of us using set triggers won more than he did.  A set trigger can be set in ounces where for safety reasons a single trigger should be at least a couple of pounds.  They can be made smooth and tuned very nicely. but still do not have the letoff of a good set trigger.  
For me the barrel is precision the trigger is accuracy.


DP

[roundball]

 
"...When I target shot a fellow..."

Interesting sequence of words  


Agree with your summary...and for me, there's another consideration about triggers that I learned to adhere to...I've always had muzzleloaders with double set triggers and always used the set trigger for everything at the range and/or hunting as there was no question they resulted in better accuracy for me.....mainly because back during those times they were T/C triggers on their Hawken model and trying to use the front triggers by themselves as they came from the factory was so terrible I found them unusable, but the adjustable set triggers were fine.

One time years ago I ordered a single "hunting trigger" conversion kit from T/C...which literally turned out to be nothing more than the exact same trigger frame with the rear (set) trigger & spring removed...but although still pretty heavy I was able to do my thing and get it down to around 3 pounds so I figured I'd try it hunting.

But when using it for hunting one day and a buck was approaching, old habits from thousands of shots using set triggers kicked in without me realizing it...I settled the sights on a buck and gently began applying the lightest possible finger pressure to the trigger...but it didn't go off...and it didn't go off...and after 10 seconds or so it finally dawned on me that I was simply slowly taking up all that slack in the front trigger instead of applying light pressure to a cocked set trigger.

Got home and immediately swapped the triggers back the way they were...I want every muzzleloader I own to operate the same way...even got double set triggers on the new Virginia so I could continue my old habits like I always have.

[northmn]

I edited the comment so that it does not imply I shot a fellow.  Lot of folks like DST's and I do not mind the double stage types that can be used like a single trigger if needed.  Somewhere I remember reading where a couple of mountain men ended up grabing each others rifle when a bear came around the one with the single trigger I believe got off a shot?  The one that grabbed the one with the DST's about bent the rear trigger trying to get it to go off.  Rather humorous episode as I think he ended up clubbing the bear and ran it off. 

DP

[roundball]

And while acknowledging I only have experience with just one set of Davis triggers now, I will say that the front Davis trigger is much better by itself than T/C's front triggers by themselves...

[hanshi]

Interesting topic and I tend to agree with both roundball and northmn.  Having similar triggers on similar rifles is vital, even to the point of weight of pull.  I virtually never fire with an unset trigger and all my longrifles feature DSTs.  Even in the heat of buck fever I don't have to worry over the trigger regardless which rifle I use.  The process of using them is so simple it quickly becomes reflex.  In fact, I would enlarge on that and say it pretty much applies to ALL firearms.

[wvmtnman]

     I prefer to use double set triggers. I only wish that the triggers being produced today looked more like the set triggers produced back then.  For that reason, I have began to make myown double set triggers, what a job...
     Many will say that you need a single trigger muzzleloader for hunting but I have never understood that.  I admit that my experience is limited.  But after three seasons of only using muzzleloaders for both small and large game, I have not found any reason to change. 
     I feel that the most important thing for a hunter to do is be familiar with the rifle.  You need to shoot it enough to KNOW when the trigger will trip the sear.  Once this is learned, you can then begin to truely be in tune with your rifle of choice, be it single or set triggers.
                                                                                      Brian

[roundball]

"...will say that you need a single trigger muzzleloader for hunting but I have never understood that..."

I've heard two common themes about it:
1) A larger trigger guard and single trigger more easily allow the use of gloves while shooting in cold climates;
2) Setting a trigger is an extra step and takes too long;

In 18 years of hunting I've never had a deer approach that I didn't have time to both slip off a glove and set the trigger.

[longcruise]

"...will say that you need a single trigger muzzleloader for hunting but I have never understood that..."

I've heard two common themes about it:
1) A larger trigger guard and single trigger more easily allow the use of gloves while shooting in cold climates;
2) Setting a trigger is an extra step and takes too long;

In 18 years of hunting I've never had a deer approach that I didn't have time to both slip off a glove and set the trigger.

And, setting the trigger can make a click.  Some can be set silently by holding the trigger down while pulling the hammer back and then slowly releasing the trigger.

All of my DST triggers (3) have had lousy front-unset pulls.  So lousy they may as well have been double trigger set only cause that's they only way they are useful.

I like the set feature for target shooting and have used them successfully for hunting too, but am planning to make a drop in single trigger for my .54 just to see if it works out better.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I really like this trigger cause it works like silk and I can use it set ot unset, with gloves or without!!

Stan Hollenbaugh double action, single set trigger http://www.stanhollenbaughgunsmith.com/images/trigger.jpg.JPG
the Hollenbaugh trigger: Note the trigger shape, its fine on the .54 and perfect for the new .58!!


I use this on my So colonial .54 deer hunting rifle and am building it into a 1750 English Officer's .58 rifle.  It is terrific as it fires from the unset as well as set positions.
The pattern I am using for the new rifle: Note the trigger shape. No, I am not using that sideplate! I wish...

[hanshi]

I've never had a deer (or other game) spook at the faint "snick" of the set trigger and some were close, close as in measured in feet.  I do concern myself over the hammer cocking sound but can get around that.

[northmn]

Lately I have switched to a single trigger for a couple of builds.  One is on a smooth rifle design and the other on an English half stock flintlock.  Regardless, simplicity is nice.  Dr. T Boone's single sets are also very good as I have used a single set.  Really good for replacing a single trigger for a target rifle or for utilizing in a single trigger design.  Read an article on the Hamilton/Burr duel and they found that Hamilton got shot with his own pistols, but that now they think he set the hidden set trigger and Burr did not know about them.  Hamilton's hair trigger went off in the air and permitted Burr to shoot him.   Some thought Hamilton shot in the air to call of the duel as is common, thus ruining Burr's reputation.  They do go back in historical use.  Never seen DST's on an English sporting rifle, and a lot of American Longrifles did not have them.  The triggers I hate the most, the single action type, seemed to be very common on Tennessee Rifles.  Still for a hunting rifle I do like them.  I won an aggregate at a state shoot with a single trigger.  Never won a first on the individual events but won big on the aggregate as I placed second or third in the 5 single events.  Even placed third in bench rest that day against some zip guns with target sights.  Single triggers aren't all bad either.  Deer hunting in North Mn brush where a quick shot may be in order or off deer standsmake them very practical.

DP

[Kermit]

Thanks, DrTim, for getting around to SINGLE set triggers. I've often wondered about them, but have never talked with anyone who uses one, nor have I read enough to know where/when/if they were used back in the day. I'd like to know, cuz my Early Virginia seems to be calling out for one!

[northmn]

For target competition, most folks are probably better served with a set trigger.  The one I used is an earlier model than the Dr.'s.  I shot it very well when I target shot.  One of the "problems" in using a set trigger unset is that the trigger pin is set much lower than on a good single trigger and getting the same pull is not as possible, but it is nice to be able to release spring pressure when unpriming and that sort of thing without setting the trigger.  They might be the best of both worlds unless you are kind of stingy like I am and do like to spend too much on a build.   DSTs and Sinlge sets are running another $50 or so for parts costs.

DP

[Daryl]

My hunting rifles, except for the .32 have single triggers. All 4 have 1 1/2 to 2 pound pulls and shoot just fine on target or game. The set trigger is set 'heavy' at about 8 ounces - bit more than a breath to set if off.

[Jerry V Lape]

Daryl,

What single trigger construction do you like to use on your rifles? 

[Daryl]

High pivot - English style.

[northmn]

I don't think I have ever seen a picture of an English gun with set triggers.  Somewhere I believe I read that they did not believe in them.  Felt that the 2 pounds or so in a single trigger was plenty light.  One thing I will state is that I really like the simplicity of a single trigger, but while a set trigger takes more inletting, a single trigger can be harder to set up the way one likes it.  You may get to know how to disassemble your lock very well.  Also a good single trigger should have a lock with a fly just like a set trigger.  Sometimes you get lucky.  Once its there, for me, they still make the best set up for a larger game hunting rifle.  Deer hunting in 20 degree weather or so is better with a simpler setup.  Also notice the size of the English trigger guards Daryl has pictured. 

DP

[Daryl]

Forsyth was dead against set triggers as well as against flys (detents) on the tumbler.  He wrote about large bore big game rifles and pulls heavy enough to not need flys.  When you get down around or under 2 pounds, a slow steady pull can drop the sear into the 1/2 cock notch on many locks so I prefer a fly if the tumber is set up for one.
When I first started shooting prone and postion competition, the triggers had to be 3 pounds. That is now reduced to 2.2 pounds (1 Kilo).  With good triggers, ie: crisp and sharp, no travel, 2 to 3 pounds is just fine.

[James Rogers]

I don't think I have ever seen a picture of an English gun with set triggers.  Somewhere I believe I read that they did not believe in them. 
DP

Here is a rare one by Probin from the 1780's

[Daryl]

I don't think I have ever seen a picture of an English gun with set triggers.  Somewhere I believe I read that they did not believe in them. 
DP

Here is a rare one by Probin from the 1780's

James- do you know the calibre or bore of that piece?

[Jerry V Lape]

Daryl,

Ok, but I don't know what a high pivot English style trigger means?  Is that a trigger plate with a pivot cast in higher than normal, or is it a plain single trigger pinned in wood, or?  If you have a photo / diagram it might help with my poor understanding. 

[northmn]

Track of the Wolf sells them.  The ones TOW sell have a very high solid post sticking up out of the trigger plate.  The trigger pivot is a couple of ears sticking out maybe 3/8 inch or higher above the plate.  That same post is used to recieve the tang screw.  Its a very solid combination.  I figured if I mentioned not seeing an English gun with a DST someone would show one, but they are not common.  The Pedersoli copy of the Gibbs long range rifle uses a single trigger.  I assume that that would be typical even in their target rifles.  For me a DST gives the biggest advantage in an offhand rifle, and less in one that is rested.  There are two factors to look at in setting up a single trigger.  One is pounds of pull and the other the length of pull or the "squeeze" if you will.  The screw in a DST adjusts the length of pull.  A single trigger has to have a longer "squeeze" for safety, to prevent the lock from too easily tripping.  A gunsmith one time told me that some very short trigger pulls can still be fairly heavy.

DP

[Eric Krewson]

Where I hunt in Alabama, deer will often notice the sound of setting a trigger and look around, the noise of cocking a hammer will send them all into flight.

My biggest problem with set triggers for deer hunting is putting my cold, numb finger on one and firing the gun before I am ready to shoot. Several deer have lived another day because of my use of set triggers.

The last to escape was a nice 8 point at 10 yards. I was using a friend's gun that had the trigger set so light you only needed to touch the side of the trigger to set it off. I inadvertently touched the side of the trigger with my cold finger as I was lining up on the buck and shot over his back.

 He had been chasing does around me all morning and came in lust crazed and slobbering with his eyes rolling. The bad thing is he didn't even run off at the shot and started horning a bush and making a scrape.  I then cut too big a patch to reload and hung my ramrod. It took me a while to finally extract my ramrod.  The buck walked away into the pines a few seconds before I was ready to take another shot.

For deer hunting, I only want a single trigger on my guns from now on.

[Daryl]

Jerry - by highly pinned, I meant either pinned high in the wood or with a high boss for pinning as DP noted.  It's been so long since Ihad the trigger out of the 14 bore, I can't remember if it's pinned in wood or a high boss on the trigger plate- think that's the situation with it. My kinda-english shaped squirrel/rook rifle has a high pin in the wood for it's single trigger. The 20 bore smooth-bore flint I couldn't say, as it's not been apart for me yet, but all 3 have very nice pulls in the 2 pound or under range. To get the pull down on the .40, I had to replace the trigger with  one having a high boss, and stone the tumbler & sear a bit.

[Swampwalker]

As to the presence of a single set trigger on English guns, I have a high quality English rifle dating to approximately 1850 with a single set trigger.   The rifle was made by Clough & Sons of Bath.