Author Topic: Patch diameter?  (Read 8112 times)

beleg2

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Patch diameter?
« on: February 09, 2010, 10:52:43 PM »
I will try RB again as I promise to Daryl ;)

I have use a big patches for .58" and .50" but much of the patch get over the ball as I push it down.
I'm concern that cushion can affect seating pressure.

What is the best patch diameter for a .575" RB?

Thanks
Martin

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 11:12:01 PM »
Assume you are asking anyone?   

I don't nutz with precut patches.  This may not be the answer you are looking for; but I cut my bulk material into strips, use spit patch (bear grease when bitter cold) seat the ball just so the knife does not cut into the sprue and cut her off at the muzzle.  I cut my strips minimum of 1 1/4 inches or more. (for my 45)

Cheaper and easier and less monkeying around. ;D

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 11:29:51 PM »
To cut patches at the muzzle as Roger describes would, for a .575RB, result in a patch 1.48" (i.e. nominally 1-1/2") in diameter.  If you're going to use precut patches, I'd go with 1.5" diameter.  You could get by with patches .9" in diameter, but the ball would have to be absolutely perfectly centered, else you'd have lead bearing against the bore somewhere.   

Since the range of possibilities is somewhere between .9 and 1.5,  I'd say try both 1.25" and 1.5" diameter patches with the .575RB, and go with the one that gave best accuracy results and was easiest to load with the ball centered on the patch.

SCL

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 03:13:39 AM »
I use anything 1 1/8" up to 1 1/2" for the .58 - and 1 1/2" for the .20 and 14 bores.

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 12:30:04 AM »
Thanks fro your answers.
I have been using 2" patches.
I have cut them to 1,5" and will tryed them tomorow.
Thansk
Martin

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 07:20:50 PM »
Hi, I'm back from the range.
Shooting was promising but bad.
Most of the balls from both barrels made a 5" group at 50 meters but with many fliers.
Shooting the Kodiak double rifles.
.575" WW balls and .011" patch. Hoppes N9 Plus.
First loading (with barrels clean and dry) was easy.
Second was little more difficult.
Third was difficult and last load have to be hammered for the first inch and then load by hand.
Those are the patches in order of shooting from left to right.

I think I would have to smooth the last inch of each barrel.
Thanks
Martin
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 07:24:10 PM by beleg2 »

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 08:03:10 PM »
I'd be tempted to try experimenting with maybe a .570 ball (or maybe even .562) and a thicker patch (pillow or mattress ticking .018 to .025 thick).   It may be that if you had more cloth and less lead, the progressive loading difficulties you describe might be reduced. 

I have found some guns to be extremely sensitive to the patch lube being used, too.   Some of my rifles are very happy with a spit patch.   On another rifle, I used a variation of Dutch Schulz's recommended lube:  I make up a mixture of olive oil and water (1:7 ratio) plus a drop of dishwashing detergent so the oil will separate.  Shake it to mix.  Put the patching material in to saturate it.  Lay the material out flat and let it dry, and use it after it dries.   (Dutch's recipe uses water soluble machine oil instead of olive oil/soap, but I haven't been able to find any locally.)   In shooting off a rest, I saw a very noticeable shrinkage of group size when I went from 1:6 oil: water to 1:7, and got a better group than using spit lubed patches.     

If you were to shoot 5 shot groups with .570, and .575 balls, with .011, .018, and .020 thick patching, lubed with spit, Hoppes, 1:6 Olive Oil, and 1:7 Olive oil,   you would be shooting 2X3X4=24 five shot groups.     That might take several trips to the range, but would give you a pretty complete record of what your rifle likes and doesn't.   And, since your rifle is a double, you could probably limit your test to whichever barrel you feel most confident is the 'best'.

Good Luck, SCL

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2010, 08:54:29 PM »
Martin- the patches show what is wrong- they are way too thin and are not only too thin to seal, they hold too little lube as well.

As SCL says, you need a thicker patch. Since I have a .562" Lee mould for my Musketoon, which has very shallow rilfing and a small bore(.574"), I used the same ball for the .58 Kodiak.  As you can see in the video, my loading was easy - without changing no matter how many shots are fired - it loads the same. I would prefer a .570"RB mould for this gun, but will make do with the smaller, .562" ball as it seems to shoot OK for a hunting rifle.  I use a .022" patch with it that are all re-usable after being fired,yet it barely seals.  A heavier-yet patch would produce even better accuracy, as if I use more than 82gr. 3F, they look similar to yours- too thin for the pressure. Any more 3F and they burn or blow, yet will withstand up to 120gr. of 1F and 110gr. 2F just fine.  A 12oz. denim, (.025" to .030") patch would be needed to shoot 100gr. or more of 3F due to it's not only higher pressure, but faster peaking pressure.

I do have a part box of .570 swaged balls that a friend gave me, that I will test later or next month, after my BP arrives. If the accuracy is substancially better, I'll have Jeff make a .570" mould. The larger ball will be needed for paper ctgs. anyway.


Chesapeakeman

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 10:29:14 PM »
The Kodiak that I have is one of the combo guns with a 12ga. and 58 set of barrels. The 58 has a bore that looks exactly like a reproduction musket barrel turned down to the correct size for this application. It shoots best with a mini-ball or solid base slug but is useable with a 570 round ball patched with .018 using a well lubed patch. I haven't had good luck with heavy loads using round balls. It might just be the gun that I have as it was one of the first fifty that were made and they may have changed the specs for later production.

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 11:08:33 PM »
Thanks for your answers.
I forgot to mention that I measure the patch  compressing it, that is .010" if I measure it normally (?) is is a .014".
I have just measure the balls I casted and they are out off round .578" by .575".
.576+.010+.010= .596"
As good as I could measure the barrel I/D should be .604"

How about trying a .014" patch? (.576+.014+.014=.604")
I tried some .017 (compressed pillow ticking but could not pass the muzzle without hammering.
Also, I will try some pure lead balls as they can be swagged better than WW ones.

SCL,
Thanks I know Duch method but I always have bad accuracy when I clean between shots.
Also, i would like to shot without cleaning.

Daryl,
Your patch is .022", when compressed?
What about coning the muzzle?

Chesapeakman,
This rifle shoots OK with REALs, but I would like to try RB too.

Thanks
Martin

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 12:36:54 AM »
My patch is .0215" to .022" compressed between the wide tines of the calipers, squeezing the tines between the finger and thumb.  Without having a repeatable system for measuring, different measurements are recorded each time it's done.When I squeeze that same material between the anvils of a Micrometer, twirrling the dial against the ratchet, it measures .0185", every time. I prefer to use the mic. for measuring patch material, but it regularly runs .003" smaller than one set of calipers I have, and .002" smaller than another set - different width flats, I guess. This difference is consistant. My mic and Taylor's mic also have different ratchet strength, so give slightly different measurements on the same cloth - identical on hard objects - so stating a patch measures X, Y or Z might not mean anything to someone with a different measuring device.

If the patch does not have at least .002" compression per side, it will allow too much blowby. A compression per side of .006" will normally allow any charge of 3F. Less than that usually won't - for me.

I don't like coning - but I do like a smooth crown with rounded, polished sides, radiused with no corners, to allow the ball and patch to swage into the rifling, without tearing the patch.

There is NO factory made crown that is good enough - Getz, Rice, Green Mountain, Goodoien, - whomever.  They all need polishing to remove the tooling shoulders before I will even try to shoot them.  I did see a Rayle crown on a .62 rifle that looked pretty good - on H. Jack's rifle, but don't know if Taylor did that or it came that way.

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 03:06:16 AM »
Hi,
I have just tried on patched ball into the muzzle and out.
Most of the cutting cam from seating the ball.
Rifling should be too sharp.
I will try to smooth them with steel wool.

Thanks
Martin

PS: BTW do you take the hammers out when you blued lock plates?

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 03:41:59 AM »
Maritin - it's the rifling right at the crown that is too sharp - not the rifling down inside the bore. Steel wool might work- after a long time - emery or wet or dry sandpaper, very fine work just fine - wrapped around a tapered wooden, aluminum tool made for the job, or a tapered grinding stone. Rotate it in the muzzles with your fingers, back and forth, turning the barrel several times to get it even. This will give a good taper. Finish with fine paper or emery cloth and the end of your thumb as in the photo below.

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2010, 03:57:54 AM »
Thanks Daryl,
a 45 angle is good for the tool?
You mean moving the finger in and out in line with the axis of the barrel?
what grain?
Beg your pardon but I'm a little low to learn.  :D
Thank you very much for helping.
BTW. When you blued your Kodiak, do you take the hammers or you blued on the lock plates?

Martin

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2010, 04:23:43 AM »
Martin -  the answer to the lock blueing is on nitroexpress. Please read i before doing anything to the locks.

As to the emery - rotating your thumb, as in trying to screw your thumb into the bore, not shoving it in and out. Rotating will give you a good finish. Yes 45 degress is OK.

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2010, 04:46:23 AM »
Thank you very much for all the info, here and there  ;).

I will take some pictures, it looks good for a tutorial, following your text.

Thanks again
Martin

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2010, 07:14:47 PM »
Thanks Daryl,
a 45 angle is good for the tool?
You mean moving the finger in and out in line with the axis of the barrel?
what grain?
Beg your pardon but I'm a little low to learn.  :D
Thank you very much for helping.
BTW. When you blued your Kodiak, do you take the hammers or you blued on the lock plates?

Martin
Hey Marty:  What our young Canadian friend is trying to say; but is trying to be politically correct is - Think of turning a ball in to a hole (and rotating the barrle to different positions while so doing) rather than sexual foreplay ::)  Take my work for it - it works...  I'm living proof of that (so far) since I shoot a .454 ball with .015/.016 spit patch (or bear grease) in my ol Getz .45!!  Enjoy

Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2010, 08:52:18 PM »
Marty, are you using wheel weights for your lead alloy?

While wheel weight roundballs will shoot just fine, I have noticed a big difference in difficulty ramming them to seat.  The harder alloy was harder to load given the same patch thickness.

Trying softer lead might help - if you can get it.

Also, I've never had a problem with patch overlap affecting seating pressure.  I've always seated with with a push of the hand, then I bounce the rod on the ball.  It becomes real obvious when the ball reaches a firm seat just by how the ramrod darn near leaps back out of the barrel.

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2010, 09:20:20 PM »
While ramming ie; bouncing the rod won't hurt a WW ball, it won't help a pure lead ball. It also "Meals' the powder- crushign it and forming a solid plug.  We usually don't recommend this - in very hot weather, with a hot barrel, it might be possible to make the gun go off as well - almost documented - apparently.

A harder than pure lead ball requires to be undersized, with a heavier patch to take the rifling.  For example, the .562' ball for the .58's can be WW and still load well with an .018" thou patch in the Musketoon as it's .012" undersize.  In the .58 Kodiak, it should also be OK, but with the deeper rifling, you might have to go to a much heavier patch, but then, the .562 WW ball should work with a .025" denim patch.

Another example - I shoot .682" pure lead balls in my .69(14 bore rifle). I cannot shoot .684" WW balls (cast .002 larger) with a cloth patch as they are too large to admit a patch that will seal ie: no burnouts. So - since I like to be able to shoot a WW ball, I bought a .675" mould from Jeff Tanner, which allows the same .030" patch I use with the larger ball.  .030" is what it measures with callipers, and .025" with a mic. ie: 12 oz. denim.

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2010, 09:59:20 PM »
Thanks to all!
Next time I will try pure lead balls (have to cast some) and let you know.
This PL ball should be a little smaller, isn't it?
I also will probably buy another Tanner mould as soon as I received the one is coming right now.
I would like to be able to use WW as I have much of it.

Roger English is a second language to me so I beg you pardon for double meanings. ;)

Thanks
Martin

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2010, 07:58:48 PM »
Martin- I suggest if you want to use WW, get a Lee .562" DC mould, or have Jeff make a .560" mould for you.

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2010, 08:18:57 PM »
Thanks Daryl,
That was what I was thinking.
Just do not want to ask you so many question, but:
Do you find this a good diameter?
What about .565" for heavier charges?

Thanks
Martin

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2010, 10:11:57 PM »
.560 to .565 - any will do. You merely adjust the patch to give .004" minimum compression per side.

With .012"  rifling (.604 - .580 = .024 total.  ie: .012" per side. I'm surprised it's that deep, but could be.

Thus .565" + .025" + .025" = .615".  therefore  .615 - .604 = .011 - which would give .0055" compression per die - which is good - near perfect.

Thus .562" + .025" + .025" = .612".  therefore  .612 - .604 = .008 - which would give .004" compression per side. - which might do for heavy loads just fine - might not.
I am getting by with a thinner patch, due to my use of 2F.  3F, even with only 82gr. burns holes in the patches showing not a tight enough fit.  I am using a patch that only just goes to the bottom of the grooves, perhaps .001" compression per side - I have to use a tighter combination if I want to use heavier than 75gr. 3F, 100gr. 2f or 120gr. 1F loads. At these listed levels, however the patch maintains it's integrity.  It is very easy loading, but then, when a tighter combo is seated flush with the bore(as shown), then put down 5" with a starter, they are all easy to load. No one at our field has trouble loading.  We've crowned the muzzles and supply proper sized balls and patchs for beginners, who learn right off what to use and do so from then on. 

beleg2

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2010, 05:12:42 AM »
Thanks
I think most of the problem is in the condition of the muzzle.
I have just blued the lock plates and I will try some balls (seat the ball and get it out) to see if I get cut on my patches. I will polish with my thumb until I get no more cuts in the patch.
I measure the patch I'm using with caliper and it is .014"
My WW balls: .576"+ .014+.014 = .505" not enough compression for a heavy load.

I have a piece of OxYoke pillow ticking that was marked as .018":
.576"+ .018+ .018 = .512"
If i measure with my caliper it is .020"
.576"+ .02+ .02 = .516" good compression but I can not load it without heavy hitting.. >:(

Please remember I  have to use 110 gn of FFFg because it is the only powder I can get here. According to some measurements I did, it have 20-30% of FFg.
Also, this rifle regulate only with 110-115 gn of this powder.

I will have to try pure lead at this ball diameter. ;)


Thanks
Martin
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 07:50:13 AM by beleg2 »

Daryl

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Re: Patch diameter?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2010, 05:14:06 PM »
.576" is find with pure lead - way too big for a ww ball. You need pure lead, or - a smaller mould, Martin. With pure lead, you should be able to use the Oxyoke patch.  I had a bag of OxYoke ticking that was marked .018", but was very soft and compressible, it was .016" measured with calipers and .014" with my mic.  I found you canot get consistant measurements with calipers unles you squeeze the caliper's tines between finger and thumb.  Shoving the thumb button forward does not give an accurate mesurement that is consistant.