Author Topic: Pitfalls  (Read 25296 times)

Offline Pete G.

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Pitfalls
« on: February 11, 2010, 03:14:55 AM »
I've been sitting by the fire with a glass of icewater (with a generous splash of whiskey to kill the taste) and the thought occurred to me that although I've seen numerous instruction on the proper way to build a rifle,  I don't think I've ever really seen a list of pitfalls to avoid. Perusal of RCA and the Kindig book both demonstrate page after page of what we now might consider mistakes. Should we copy these in order to be correct or should we use these examples to build a better gun than the oldtime smiths used to produce? I personally think that although some guns were built as a work of art, just as some of the period furniture, most guns as well as the furniture were built as a utilitarian object with a certain amount of embellishment in order to produce a more marketable product. Whether this really means anything to the examples that we reproduce I don't really know, but in the spirit of being the best we can there are certain things that I try to avoid (not that I always do). The things that I seem to notice the most are:
1.   Lock panels that are too wide.
2.   Sideplates do not fit with the design of the panel.
3.   Buttplates not aligned with the centerline of the stock.
4.   Forstock  has too much wood left.

What can the members here add to that list?

As an additional thought..although not a problem of mine, are some of the “perfect” hobbyist guns really improper by virtue of the fact of being too good?


Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 03:37:31 AM »
I'll pick the easy one - Gaps ::)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 04:24:00 AM »
Poorly designed and executed carving (lots of examples)
Buttplate top extension digs down into the comb (Fainot)

I would say early rifles more often have good architecture than later rifles (post 1820)
Andover, Vermont

Birddog6

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 04:44:17 AM »
Gaps between the nosecaps & ramrods

Over half of the RR covered by wood.

Top rail of wood on forestock where it meets barrel too wide.

Edge of wood at RR groove on forestock too wide.

Triggers now centered. (Some originals are offset in the plate towards lock side)

Triggerguards not centered

Entrypipe finale not centered.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 02:39:20 PM by Birddog6 »

dannybb55

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 05:38:57 AM »
Poorly designed and executed carving (lots of examples)
Buttplate top extension digs down into the comb (Fainot)

I would say early rifles more often have good architecture than later rifles (post 1820)
Is that 1820 or 1820 to present. The current trend for intentionally ugly rifles is apalling re: the M-4  :P

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 08:09:13 AM »
Didn't we just discuss triggers should be offset to the lock side, in which case they should not be centered? 

Birddog6

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 02:34:04 PM »
That is correct. Most of them you see are now centered & allot of the originals triggers were off center in the plate, to the lock side.  (prev. post edited to clarify)

However, if you are using a trigger asm. that is already built, you are stuck with the way it was built.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 02:37:23 PM by Birddog6 »

northmn

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2010, 04:01:02 PM »
Whether the trigger is centered or not may not be a pitfall as many also were centered. More of a design choice.  My 25 is causing some problems as I used DSTs to match normal usage for a poor boy but it is now a little thicker in the locks trigger area than I like compared to the rest of the gun.  3/4" barrel.
Non tapered ramrods on big bores that makes the forestock look clubbier.
A big pitfall to me is too thick of a web that makes them get a little slab sided.
Too thin of brass patchbox material making the lid flimsy.
For some builders substandard carving and engraving that should be left off. (Accept that we all have to learn and do so for learning.  I did that with checkering on a recent shotgun)
I see a lot of lock panels way too wide.  Tail of the lock panel should be centered to the wrist.
Wrist proportions too thick.
Toe of buttplate not in line with the comb.
Too massive of cheek piece.
Inability to be able to correct any mistakes mentioned and a few others like ramrod runout so that it is not so noticible.
Basic gun has to look proper or the rest is just glitter on a pig.
If one is recreating originals we are too perfect as mentioned.  Especially in final finishing. 
DP
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 04:26:54 PM by northmn »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 05:20:15 PM »
Common things that are judged at Dixon's, most of which have already been mentioned:
a) triggerguard not on straight
b) inletting gaps : barrel, furniture, lock, thimbles, nosecap to barrel fit
c) buttplate not on straight
d) too much wood left on stock (ie: fat wrist, fat forestock)
e) fore arm too square (the grip area too flat on bottom, sides of grip too flat)
f) Lock or trigger(s) not functioning properly
g) lock tipped too much
h) finish rough (file marks, tear outs, scratchy finish)
i) sideplate tipped when the screws get tightened

May I add, hardware installed in the wrong place.  ;D 
More about this later, and what I did to fix it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:25:37 PM by Acer Saccharum »
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline sz

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 06:03:51 PM »
This is how I put together a muzzleloading rifle. There are other ways, but I have found that if a new builder follows this order, that less mistakes will be made. You will eliminate some of the opportunities to make mistakes, without even knowing that you did.


For those building from "kits" you still follow the steps, but just skip the ones that don't apply.

1. Trace out your barrel on a large piece of paper.

2. Trace out the lock plate over the breach end of the barrel. Note that you will often have to tip the lock plate slightly downward in the back, so it will follow the line of the wrist later

3. Mark where the sear bar will go and make a pencil line downward at that point on the paper

4. Trace a line under the barrel 3/16" of an inch at both the muzzle and the breach. This is the top of your rod hole and channel, come down from that line 5/16, 3/8 or 7/16 to outline your rod. (depending on how big around your ramrod is going to be)

5. Come down about another 7/16" from the bottom of the rod tracing and draw in your bottom line of the hand rail section. It will be various lengths depending on what style of gun you are making. If for example, you are making a Lancaster/ York style rifle, you'd come forward from the breach about 11" + or - some, to look right for longer or shorter barrels.
At the end of your "hand rail" section, dogleg the line sharply up, and draw it right down the middle of the rod you drew. This long line will be the underside of your forestock. It is "cutting the rod in half" so that it makes a channel where the rod will rest.

6. Draw a line 3/16" over the top of the barrel to represent the line of sight (LOS).

7. Draw a line down from the Line of Sight (LOS) that will be as long as your Length of Pull. (The length of pull is the distance from the place on your trigger finger where you press the trigger, to the inside of your elbow joint when your arm is bent 90 degrees. ) Let's say it was 13 1/2" to illustrate. At this point, draw in all the lines of your butt stock, but make sure that butt will be 13 1/2" long. Trace the buttplate onto the paper, so the lines will come to the correct toe and heel of that buttplate. Next you will draw in the drop you want for your own gun, both at the heel and at the comb. Take your time with this, and get the shape you really want.

8 Draw a radiused line down from the top edge of the breach of the barrel to the center of the barrel, and then draw that line all the way out to the end of the barrel, so the line goes right down the middle of the barrel. This will be the top edge of your fore stock.
At this point take a red pen or pencil, and draw over the actual stock lines you have made. That way you don't confuse your eye later when you saw, and cut the wrong line.

9. Put glue on your stock blank and glue down this tracing. Be sure the top edge of the stock to straight. When the glue is dry (I use spray on adhesive like that used for counter tops) cut out your stock on a bandsaw. Go slow and make the cuts precise.

10. Next, unbreach your barrel and place the barrel on top of the stock. You will offset the breach a little if you want cast off. (I can't say how much, because I don't know your measurements.) Inlet the breach end of the barrel until it is down on the bottom flat, and back against the "breaching shoulder" of the stock. Clamp the muzzle down where you want it. Now trace a line STRAIGHT down from each side of the barrel so that you get a 1 to 1 tracing of the width of the barrel on the top of the stock. That is your outmost line when you are inletting the barrel.
Now inlet your barrel so it is to the halfway point, all the way down it's length, Be very careful, and go as slow as you need to, to do a good job with it. If you don't get a good fit you will have problems later. It must not be super tight, but the barrel should not fall out either. I like to have to squeeze a barrel into it's channel with my hands, but I want to have to squeeze hard to get it in. Make VERY sure the depth is correct at all points if you are using a swamped barrel, because you can warp them easily if you don't!

11. When You are done inletting the barrel, re-install the breach plug, and inlet it into the wood. Make SURE it's all the way back and all the way down when you are finished. You will have to bend the tang to suit the stock shape, They are not hard, so you can bend them cold.

12. Next install your underlugs. When you have all 3 (or 4 in some guns) installed, inlet them into the wood. Be sure they are a little "loose" fore and aft, so the stock doesn't bind on them in wet and dry weather, as the stock grows a bit and shrinks a bit. You only need about .050" of "looseness" When all are inlet, measure the depth of the lugs with a caliper and mark for the pins. Drill the holes for the pins (or wedges in some cases) HALFWAY THROUGH so you see the drill come out inside the inlets you just cut. Re-install the barrel and clamp it down, and then drill the rest of the way through.

13. Now take out the barrel and drill a 1/16" hole through the bottom of the barrel channel, just forward of the "dog-leg" where the entry pipe will go. Re-install the barrel and draw a line from that hole to the end of the forestock directly under the barrel. This is the center of your rod channel. Cut the rod channel until it is at the half diameter of your rod, and dead straight. You will usually cut deep enough to expose the bottom of the tabs of the underlugs.
When the channel is done, lay a rod drill into the channel and drill your rod hole until it is as deep as the back end of the barrel.

14. Install your nose cap. Work the wood down about 3/4" behind it and file everything to the shape you want. Then sand and polish the wood and metal together until it is totally finished. You will not have to do "finish work" later.
 
 
15. File and shape your buttplate. Polish it to a finished stage on the return. Next install the butt plate. You will set it on left or right of center to get your "cast off", if you want any.
Once the butt is on, shape the wood down and form the final edges of the lock panels and the shape of the butt stock. Use a straight edge to take all the "humps" out of things, so that everything looks as you want it to look. Lastly polish the sole of the buttplate to a finished stage.

 
16. Plane or sand down the lock side of the stock where the lock will go, until the thickness is the same as the thickness of the bolster of the lock. Then do the same thing on the off side. Take pains with this! You need to be sure the lock panels are not tilted or out of parellel with the side flat of the barrel. They must be square with the side flats, leave a little wood to dress down later.

17. Now inlet your lock plate. Take it down until the bolster is tight against the barrel.

18. Now sand the wood down carefully until the lock is setting at it's final depth. You will sand this down with fine paper so you get the wood edges around the lock to a 100% finished stage, ready for stain.

19. Now, plane and sand down the off side of the lock area, so it's the same thickness as the lock side, and sanded down to about 120 grit. When that's done, inlet your side plate. When it's in, drill your lock bolt holes and install them. Then polish the side plate until it is 100% finished.

20. Now sand the "off side" down to a finished surface, ready for stain.

21. Now inlet all the "lock guts" and your flash hole liner.

22. Next inlet the entry pipe. Make sure the rod will pass through it and that everything is aligned.

23. Now shape the forestock and the hand rail. Take the time to do it right, and take it all down to about 120 grit.
 
NOTE:  If you are going to use forestock inlays, this is the time to do them, but read the next step first.  The inalys have to work with the long forestock moldings, not against them.  So make sure the inlays will not be a problem in relation to your long forestock moldings.  In some cases you may want to do the next step before you inlet your inlays.  Think before you cut!

24. Now cut the long moldings in the forestock. They will run into the carving. You will go around the entry pipe, so cut then as you like, but remember they are part of the carving so do them carefully.

25. Cut the lock moldings around the lock panels. Make them as good as you can, and then finish all the stock from the wrist to the muzzle down to 400 grit.

26. Draw and cut your entry pipe carvings at this point. You are doing the "final work" at this point, so do it carefully and take your time.

27. Cut your lower butt moldings. When you have them cut, sand the buttstock down to 120 grit. Sand the toe line (bottom of the stock from butt plate to hand rail) to 400 grit.

28. Install the toe plate at this point. Then install your triggers and shape the trigger bar as necessary. Finish the wood and metal around the triggers until they are ready for stain.

29. Install your Front sight.

30. Do all file work and polish on your trigger guard. Then inlet it into your stock, and pin

31. Inlet the patch box. When it is in, and the catch is made and finished,  sand wood and metal together to a point it is 100% finished.   Inlet any cheek piece inlays you have now too.
 
32.Install your rear sight so that the edge of your hand touches it comfortably when the rifle is carries at it's balance point.

33. Wet the stock with water and let it dray. Use 400 grit "wet or dry" to whisker it off. Do this about 4 times.

34. Do the remaining carvings behind the breach tang, around the wrist, and behind the cheek piece. Finish them 100%.

35. Stain.

36. Finish all the wood.

37. Sight in the rifle. You will have to do some drifting and filing here, so work up an accurate load first, and then do the final adjustments.

38. Strip the rifle down and polish and prepare all your steel. If you followed my directions, all the brass is already done. When the steel's ready, brown or blue it, or in many cases the iron was just left bright. It is your choice.

39. Engrave.

40. Put the rifle back together after the metal finish is done, and you are ready to go hunting.

Good hunting and shooting
Steve

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2010, 06:07:27 PM »
My biggest pitfall on my first gun was pin and lock bolt holes drilled at a slant instead of square. Part of my problem was I took for granted that the "0" setting on my drill press table was square, found out later it wasn't even close.

Lousy countersinking with lots of chatter was next.

I ended up having the front hole in my lock plate and tang hole tig welded closed so I could drill and countersink them correctly.

Along with my other drilling woes is trying to use a poor quality bit ( the only one I had that was the right size) and having it skate on me when it hit the lock plate when I was redrilling my front lock bolt hole. It put my hole a little off from where I wanted it, new bits from now on in my builds.

Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 06:46:26 PM »
One I see (not on rifles shown on this site) is use of wildly inappropriate furniture for the style of rifle being built - the most common seem to be early germanic locks on steel trimmed southern mountain rifles, or early wide, flat buttplates on golden age rifles. 

northmn

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2010, 07:43:39 PM »
Another one that I have had to correct is a misplaced touch hole liner.  On a target guns one can fill the pan to adjust if down too far.  On a hunting rilfe they cause fusing.  I have had to fix this on one rifle by using a larger size blank and redrilling and making my own liner.  They can be easy to misalign.

DP

Offline Stophel

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2010, 08:05:13 PM »
I've seen several otherwise pretty nice guns that have had their set triggers sunk into the wood...ugh   :P  I know the triggers are too short, but you come up with new triggers that are high enough, don't sink the triggerplate in below the surface of the wood!  Cheesy.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline SR James

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2010, 08:57:35 PM »
I think I could have saved everyone the trouble of listing all these things by just posting pictures
of any gun I've built! ;D
This is an informative post and a good "check list".

eagle24

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2010, 11:01:04 PM »
Like Eric said above.  Biggest problems I had were the drilling and countersinking operations during the course of the build.  Barrel Pins, lock bolts, tang bolts, screws, etc.  Very few of mine turned out exactly the way I wanted.  OH.....a dual warning.  1. Don't force a tap and use lubricating oil &  2. Don't use a HSS tap (or at least if you do, you better not break it off flush in a lockplate).

Offline gusd

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2010, 11:11:59 PM »
sz,   Now you've done it, Listing all the steps left in building the rifle I'm working on!!
Just going to throw it in the wood stove now!!
Gus

Offline sz

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2010, 11:47:15 PM »
what.....the gun or the list?
:D

billd

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2010, 12:05:33 AM »
How about getting the whole gun finished and finding sanding marks you swore were not there yesterday.

Bill

eagle24

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2010, 12:31:22 AM »
How about getting the whole gun finished and finding sanding marks you swore were not there yesterday.

Bill

This may be the best one yet.  Amazing how those sanding marks that were not there grow on a stock after a couple of days.

Offline t.caster

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2010, 12:42:47 AM »
Pitfalls? So much of what is mentioned is ....cosmetic! Of course that is important, BUT make sure it is properly assembled MECHANICALLY FIRST, before worrying about the cosmetics! SZ listed a lot of the mechanical aspects of the relationship (alignment) between the big three: barrel-lock-trigger(s). They are the heart, lungs and brain of the longrifle.
Tom C.

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2010, 02:15:23 AM »
This is a good thread for a new guy like me, I wish it was posted a couple months ago when I started my first! I`ll add a couple I discovered since. Be extra cautious pilot drilling holes with small bits, they have a habit of breaking during moments of concentration loss. In my case I broke a 1/16 bit just as it broke thru the triggerplate drilling down from the tang. Nasty thing was it broke off inside the tang, so I couldnt get at it from either direction. Had to lift the barrel out and with an angled object resisting all the way... took a couple chunks out behind the breech, at least they glued back easily. Also be cautious inletting barrel and how much you force things(I split the stock about 2-3 in at the muzzle doing this), another glue fix... Keep your tools(knives and chisels)sharp, sharpen FIRST then work, dont work till you have to force them and you wont slip and cut yourself or carve a chunk out of the stock in a very visible place. Or even worse both at the same time like me!...This site is a great resource, I`m glad I found it, even if I was a little late....Regards...  :) Kerry

Offline smshea

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2010, 06:55:46 AM »
Pitfalls? So much of what is mentioned is ....cosmetic! Of course that is important, BUT make sure it is properly assembled MECHANICALLY FIRST, before worrying about the cosmetics! SZ listed a lot of the mechanical aspects of the relationship (alignment) between the big three: barrel-lock-trigger(s). They are the heart, lungs and brain of the longrifle.

Amen!

Woodstock

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2010, 05:53:45 PM »
1. Check all parts in relation to the stock. Example, my current build the ram rod hole is about 1/16 off center. That not only affects the entry pipe inlay being off center of the stock but will cause the rod to bind due to misalignment. Example 2. Not enough wood left for the trigger to be inlet flush to the wood and properly strike the sear rod. (pre inlet stock) When the trigger was in place the lock would not stay cocked. Had to make some phone calls and check around on how to fix it. Had I known or thought to look out for this, I could have avoided a lot of stress and lost time.
2. If it does not feel right or look just right to you, don’t do it. Think it through and be certain it is right before proceeding.  I spend a lot of time doing this. This is my first build so I have got to be carful on the though process. A gun build is like building a car. If one part is not right, it will affect everything else in the build as you go.
3. Last and most important, DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE YOU CANNOT GO TO DINNER DUE TO A PROBLEM YOU ARE TRYING TO FIX ON THE GUN! NOT GOOD!!!!!!  :'(

Offline ehoff

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Re: Pitfalls
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2010, 06:18:35 PM »
Aftering buying good componets (lock,stock & barrel) trying to save a dollar by buying cheap tools is asking for problems. The money spent on good tools and the items needed to keep them in working order (sharp, clean, protected) will help not only avoid pit falls, but make the work go easier.