Author Topic: Rifle slings  (Read 19653 times)

Offline Long John

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Rifle slings
« on: February 16, 2010, 05:09:34 PM »
I have noticed a number of rifles in RCA that have a button on the butt stock for a sling.  I have also noticed several where the front of the trigger guard has been drilled for a sling swivel.  Yet none of these guns appear to have a front sling swivel.  Admittedly, the photos in RCA are not clear enough to enable one to discern an unused hole in the fore stock, but the photos in the Moravian Guns CD from KRA are.  There is a rifle on that CD with a butt button but no evidence of a front swivel.  How was the sling attached to the front of the gun on such rifles?  Has any one seen an orginal rifle with evidence of a strap around the barrel and forstock being used?

Best Regards,

JMC

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 05:42:08 PM »
John, I have seen that, too. It doesn't make sense for the fore and aft style sling. The sights are so low on many of these guns that anything wrapping around the barrel would obliterate the sight picture.

Could the lone swivel at the front of the guard be for a cavalry style sling? A loop strap with a clip on the end?

It may be possible that some of those guards were recycled hardware from earlier guns?

Again, more questions than answers.

Tom
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 11:21:15 PM »
The "Brass Barrel Rifle" in Volume II of RCA has the guard drilled for a swivel and there is clear evidence of wear both where it is drilled and where the swivel, apparently without a sling, rested/beat on the outside of the guard bow.

The forestock was replaced but there was evidence under the barrel of a separate lug for the front swivel.


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Offline Stophel

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 06:34:02 PM »
Fore end wood has been replaced on a LOT of old guns, so even if it had a front sling swivel, it wouldn't show now.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

jwh1947

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 10:04:32 PM »
Recycled parts, quite possibly.  If you envision a front swivel (not standard on Kentucks) what would you attach it to?  Forestock wood is relatively frail, and as said before, the barrel supports the wood, not the other way around.  How many of you have regularly seen traces of supports on a bottom barrel flat?  I have not.  Wayne

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 10:51:47 PM »
I have seen a jaeger that was most likely re-stocked here. The guard has a swivel, but the fore end does not/did not have a swivel. Were slings just not used? I can't imagine not having a sling on a trek.

Tom
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jwh1947

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 11:54:34 PM »
I agree with you; yet, Jaegers and Kentucks are different things.  It is my understanding that slings and Kentuckies were not regularly combined.  Not as a rule.  Maybe later in early plains period; there, I am a fish out of water. Others can assist here.  Nor have I seen period images, woodcuts, etc. of boys with Kentucks slung over their shoulder with straps.  Maybe someone else here has; that's just one person's observations.

Offline Bill-52

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 01:54:49 AM »
Having owned and handled a number of Civil War carbines with the loop style single clip sling, I can't envision using them on a longrifle when its affixed to the triggerguard.  When utilized on a CW carbine, the clip sling is attached to the carbine near (but not at) the carbine's balance point to distribute its weight.  A clip sling at the triggerguard of a longrifle is quite far removed from the balance point and would result in the longrifle hanging virtually straight down.  I could be way off given my learning curve on longrifles but that doesn't strike me as a practical or comfortable way to carry a longrifle unless it was used in conjunction with some other contact point on the longrifle.

Bill

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 03:53:27 AM »
During frontierlife with the threat of hostiles always around I would have kept my rifle in my hands. Don't want no stinkin sling!    However, on long marches as part of large scale military operations whether mounted or walking I would probably humble my self and use a sling either clipped to a button behind the grip rail of the TG or the front of the trigger guard with a loop around the barrel out near the muzzle.  If I have time to get it off my back, I have time to get the loop out of my line of sight. ;)

I carry a sling that has a loop for the butt and a loop for the barrel, that I carry in my knapsack so that if I need two hands to drag a deer or some such thing I can sling my rifle,,,,, beats leaning it against a tree where some hostile could sneak up and grab it. ;D
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 05:43:51 AM »
Adding to what Tim wrote,

Jaegers most often had sling swivels.  That's no sweat when you hunt in an area that doesn't have hostiles and you have one or two servants who carry boar spears to protect you.  Slings came/come in handy when going up or down steep hills and you need both hands.  Also handy to skinny up a tree, though I don't see the true Jaegermeisters doing that very much when they had servants to do it.  We have to remember that hunting in Europe by the 18th century was pretty much only a rich man's sport, except of course for poachers. 

When the men who had made Jaegers in the old country (or their early apprentices) would have been used to supplying a rifle with at least the ability to mount a sling.  However, as the sling here was seen more as an encumbrance and expense, it didn't last long.  It's not hard to make a makeshift sling out of rope or even leather when you have to have one and it was far cheaper. 

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 06:06:42 AM »
were slings mostly a military thing?    extended marching typical for infantry carrying thei arms and other gear as well as mounted infantry/dragoons would really have benefitted from them, I'd think.
I vaguely recall a museum-quality french musket repro, a 1737 St Etienne from Fortress Louisberg I think,  that had a sling that attached to the forearm on one of the barrel bands and the rear end achored to a small ring anchored to the side of the stock near the sideplate.

the old Jaeger I saw today in the Jasper IN courthouse clearly had a flattened and drilled stud on the bottom of the stock a little foreward of the midpoint between the end of the TG and the toe of the butt plate rather than a mounting point on the front of the triggerguard bow.

A few early muskets I've seen had a flatbottomed loop as a forward attach that was pinned through the foreend.  Would they have been pinned through a barrel lug too?  I can't see that the wood by itself being strong enough for serious military requirements
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 07:29:00 AM by The other DWS »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 07:08:15 AM »
were slings mostly a military thing?    extended marching typical for infantry carrying thie arms and other gear as well as mounted infantry/dragoons would really have benefitted form them I'd think.

I've seen had a flatbottomed loop as a forward attach that was pinned through the foreend.  Would they have been p=pinned through a barrel lug too?  I can't see that the wood by itself being strong enough for serious military requirements

Yes, it was mostly a military thing in this country.  British Brown Bess muskets had a barrel lug for the front sling swivel. There is a very good picture of one on page 4 of Dr. Bailey's Book, "British Ordnance Small Arms, 1718 - 1783.  Fairly thick lug.  

French St. Etienne or "Charleville" muskets were all fitted for slings as were virtually all US model flintlock muskets for land use.  Some muskets for "sea service" were not fitted for slings unless they were intended for use by Marines.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 07:16:30 AM by Artificer »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 07:12:59 AM »
P.S. Most reenactors don't install a barrel lug on the barrel for a sling, though.  They just drill a hole through the forearm.  However, reenactors almost never USE the sling and no where near as rough as they would have been used by soldiers on campaign.  Even so, I've see a few repro Brown Besses that were cracked or busted through because there was no barrel lug installed for the sling swivel.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 05:20:42 PM »
When I built my first rifle, a 1765ish southern .54 rifle that might have been used by a longhunter, I put a swivel on the front of the bow and another mounted to a lug just in front of the middle RR pipe. Tried using the sling and found it wasn't comfortable at all and got in the way, so I took it and the front swivel off......now if I were on a long march afoot ot horseback...maybe.  So now I can make up all kinds of stories about the gun.....  unless I were making a copy of an original with a sling.. (not likely) I wouldn't even consider it when building now.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 05:35:35 PM »
Dr Tim, A long rifle may be just too darn long to put a sling on. It would either drag on the ground if slung muzzle down, or get caught in the branches and bracken if muzzle up.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2010, 06:16:44 PM »
At the fall shoot in 1974 on the primitive range at Friendship, my best buddy got all geared up to shoot even though it looked like it was going to rain badly.  His repro pre-Rev War rifle had (and still has) a loop in the trigger guard and a sling.  (The builder of the rifle must not have known about adding a barrel lug on the 42" swamped barrel for the sling.  I expect the builder just copied the rear sling swivel from a book.  Anyway, the sling wrapped around the barrel in front and it never got in my buddy's way during shooting.) Then the rain clouds opened up and poured water down on everyone.  My buddy slung his rifle upside down on his right shoulder and even though he is only about 5'6", the muzzle didn't come close to touching the ground.  Water poured down his hat, his buckskings, his shooting pouch, etc. in what looked like small streams.  He stayed until he looked like a drowned rat and no one else came up to shoot that morning.  He finally looked at the gent running the match and told him he thought it might be best to cancel that day.  I still kid him he looked so pathetic and forelorn that day.  Grin.

Slings were common on Brown Bess muskets even when the barrels were still 46" long and before the "short land" pattern barrels of 42" length became the norm.   However, since there is nothing in most period drill manuals about "sling arms" as a drill movement, conjecture is that they slung the muskets across their backs with the butts over their right shoulder and the muzzle going down their left side.  The use of the sling most likely was rare, even by the military.   Maybe only in the rain to keep water out of the barrel as best they could and when they had to traverse difficult terrain.  Maybe also when they were on some work details where they had to keep their musket close to hand, but while keeping their hands free to work. 

northmn

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2010, 08:22:01 PM »
I have seen sling attachments common on English Sporting rifles especially in the percussion era.   I put attachments on a sort of English style shotgun I built for that reason. Have one planned for my halfstock flintlock. They mount on the lower barrel thimble.  A sling does not put a lot of pressure against a forearm if the gun is carried butt up as mentioned as the pressure is more lengthways of the forestock.  However I would install one through a barrel lug to help with the pressure as it likely would start wearing a larger hole in the forestock.  I install slings on all of my deer rifles and a few shotguns. Even pheasant hunting at the end of the day they take a little pressure off of the arms and back.  Dogs generally indicate a bird or one may have a limit.  Leaves the hands free for other things.   ??? My big question is what were they made of back then ???

Offline Stophel

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 06:06:21 PM »
Slings are universal on German guns.  French guns often have them too.

They just disappeared on American guns.  Don't know why.



The slings are generally ordinary leather construction.  Sometimes woven linen/hemp.  A nobleman's gun might have a very elaborately embroidered or otherwise decorated sling.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 07:40:54 PM »
This has been a neat thread.

I've considered putting sling swivels on a rifle because I learned to shoot 200 yards offhand with a hasty sling in boot camp.  I've used the hasty sling offhand out to 350 yards on silhouettes with very satisfying results.  A sling would come in handy to climb into deer stands in Virginia.  However, a hasty sling isn't that practical in dense woods, ground cover and around briar thickets.  So I've dropped the idea of permanently mounted sling swivels.

However, this thread got me to thinking about something else.

I don't know of an original example of a sling that could be easily put on and taken off a rifle.   I'm thinking of using a leather sling with a period buckle on each end - as sort of a take off from a Brown Bess sling.  There would be a loop of leather that would go around two thicknesses of the leather sling on either end to keep the buckle/s away from the wood of the stock.  The sling would be adjustable on the front end like a brown bess sling.    Wouldn't take much to open and close the loops on each end of the sling with a buckle and take the sling off when not in use.  Such a sling could still be used as a hasty sling if needed. 

Even if there is no record of such a sling ever being made, I would suggest that as long as it was made out of period materials, it would still be at least acceptable to the period. 

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 11:51:10 PM »
I have one that was given to me  couple of years ago by a member here.    Strap is woven linen and it hhas a leather loop on the front end and another piece on the other end that skips over the butt.  I carry it in my haversack in case I need it in the field.

Here is one for sale at TOW for $29.00

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=1&subId=6&styleId=26&partNum=SLING-UNIV-J



« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 12:17:02 AM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 12:15:55 AM »
Pretty neat piece of gear, Dr. Tim.  I want to make something that looks something like a Brown Bess sling, though.




Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2010, 07:04:27 PM »
'been thinking about this some, re: the guard with the hole in the front, and no front swivel.

Could this hole been used as an attachment for a cow's knee? You'd never lose it, just flip it off to the side, and you're ready to fire.
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2010, 07:25:00 PM »
 Or for a hammer stall...maybe it was a reinactor's gun??? ??? :o :o ;D ;D ;D
I think you are reaching Tom..... too early for Martinis....... ;)

Then again maybe he kept his vent pick there...or a toothpick?? 

I gotta believe that the front end of his sling probably looed around the barrel... or there is a lug on the barrel under there someplace???

But.... I could be wrong...................
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2010, 07:49:20 PM »
I think Acer brought up an ineresting question. 

Did they even have hammer stalls that early in general or "somewhat" use on civilian rifles?  Even though I've made a lot of hammer stalls over the years, it has always been for re-enactors who have to have them for today's "safety standards."  I don't even know if they were actually used in the pieriod on military guns.

Gus

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rifle slings
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2010, 03:00:16 AM »
I didn't mean hammer stall, but that could apply.

I meant:
The cow's knee, the leather hood to protect the lock area from the elements.

I have a hard time imagining any kind of sling wrapped around the barrel, as the sights on original guns oft are hardly 1/16 above the barrel. The only wrap that would work would be fine cord or heavy thread.
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