Author Topic: Bending German Silver  (Read 6293 times)

billd

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Bending German Silver
« on: February 19, 2010, 05:33:12 AM »
German silver, I guess it's also called nickle silver.  I'm trying to bend a sand cast trigger guard a considerable amount. Is it handled the same as brass, heat and quench to soften it? 

Thanks,
Bill

Offline albert

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 06:44:33 AM »
my experience with German silver wasn't good,it breaks ,even with softening,could of been a bad casting.
j albert miles

Birddog6

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 01:18:41 PM »
According to Google:

COPPER, BRASS, NICKEL SILVER AND STERLING SILVER

All of these metals are treated very much alike. They require annealing after they have been hammered for a little while. To anneal these metals make them red hot with a gasoline torch or over a forge, and plunge into cold water. The number of annealings on any piece of work should be as small as possible. Never attempt to anneal aluminum or pewter in this way because they melt at lower temperatures than red heat.

Offline LRB

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 02:47:35 PM »
   It really is not necessary to quench these metals. The heat does all the annealing, and sterling silver can be made brittle by quenching at red heat. Multiple anneals do no harm unless the metals are being over heated. A dull to medium red is plenty. If you are doing a radical bend, you need many anneals. Do not try to bend when red hot unless you have done a test on a piece of the same metal, or feel adventurous. There are many different formulas for brass and NS, and many don't take kindly to being hot worked.

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 04:26:11 PM »
The parameters of the annealing process will be determined by the particular alloy composition, the higher the Ni content, the hotter the temp and longer the hold time needs to be but as with all Ni alloys, it is always best to use the lowest temp possible and extending the hold time at temp to achieve the best results.  GS alloy composition varies greatly but typically the Ni content is around 20-22% in good quality alloy with the balance being 46% Cu & 34% Zn, cheaper stuff has lesser amounts of Ni which, at times, can be as little as 12%.

Grain growth is the key to working with Ni/Cu alloys, the longer the hold temp, the better the grain growth and it's best to use the lowest temp possible but one must know the exact alloy composition in order to know the minimum hold temp as it will vary from 750°F to around 1420°F.  Too hot a temp will cook the Zn out and heating without benefit of an atmospheric controlled furnace or similar containment will result in excessive oxidation and subsequent alloy failure.  Maintaining a tight control on the hold temp is critical as fluctuations as low as ±30°F can cause intergranular separations.  Quench or not to quench as well as the quench bath temp is also critical and determined by the exact alloy composition, too cold will cause grain separation and too hot will cause grain shrinkage resulting in brittleness and hardening.  If quench is required or not is determined by the amount of Cu in the alloy as well as contaminating elements.   In some cases an air quench is sufficient, in others the rate of cooling must be controlled.

If the bending is minimal and the alloy composition unknown, I'd take a best SWAG at saying 950-1000°F for 15-25 minutes with an air quench.  See how it feels and if need be run it through another hold cycle and go to a quench bath at 90-95°F.  If the amount of rework is considerable, you must identify the exact alloy or play the guessing game with the possibility of wrecking the part.  Keep in mind that contaminating elements like Al, Pb, Fe, Mn and Sn in unknown alloys as the proportions of such can have a profound effect on both annealability and the alloy's cold/hot workability.  As a general rule of thumb, Cu based alloys do not take kindly to hot working but those with a high Ni content can be hot-worked to a point which is usually limited to long radius bending.

I love the looks of Ni/Cu and don't mind working with it but my biggest gripe lies with suppliers that don't take the builders into consideration by identifying metal items by the exact alloy.  Nothing gripes my butt more than getting parts of brass or Ni/Cu made with different alloys on the same gun.  Brass isn't so bad because you can tarnish blend for the most part but there's no adjusting the color of Ni/Cu to get a match from one part to the next.  The particular alloy doesn't really matter for the gun application as far as the typical design properties are concerned but it makes the world of difference in color matching and workability properties.  If I was building a screw for an aircraft carrier I'd be concerned about mechanical properties but I'm not.  I don't care if 60Cu/25Zn/15Ni is cheaper than the 50Cu/25Zn/25Ni alloy, I just want to know what the heck I'm getting so it matches.  There's nothing worse than being in the final polishing stages and finding out the trigger guard has gold tint and the thimbles are bright nickel. 
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Birddog6

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 04:46:24 PM »
So to make a long story short, you are saying it is a total guessing game for the average guy.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 04:52:04 PM »
Yes, the bending properties are dependent on the alloy. If you are not familiar with what you have, you cannot know its properties ahead of time, in other words, a $#@* shoot!

Tom
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 05:09:27 PM »
So to make a long story short, you are saying it is a total guessing game for the average guy.


Yep.  If there's even a small percentage of Pb in the alloy, getting it up to even a faint dull red in near dark conditions has taken it too-far and it'll blister or break like pot metal. 
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.

billd

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 01:49:20 AM »
Thanks for the replies, I guess I should have asked before I broke it.   :-[

I heated with Mapp gas, quenched it under the faucet and it cracked as soon as I tried to bend it.  I've done the same with brass, except for the cracking part.

I ordered another one ....... try, try again.   Maybe I should have ordered a couple.


Thanks
Bill

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Bending German Silver
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 04:15:11 AM »
As has been said it's a $#@* shoot.  I've had a little luck with annealing three times in a row before trying to bend, and I allow it to just air cool without quenching.  I've also heated to red and bent hot.  Also as has been said anneal, bend a bit, anneal, bend a bit, with a bit being under a 1/4 inch or less.  I've had success, and failure with both ways.  Sometimes it's the way you bite your tongue while you do it.

Bill
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