Author Topic: FLASH pan powder substitute  (Read 18632 times)

Offline Osprey

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FLASH pan powder substitute
« on: February 19, 2010, 04:23:48 PM »
I pulled this off the Outdoor Wire this morning, thought it might be of some interest on here.  Don't know that I see the point, but if you can't find the real stuff to buy it could be a good option...



Colebrook, New Hampshire- BlackMag Industries of Colebrook, New Hampshire, makers of BlackMagXP muzzleloader propellant, a proven blackpowder replacement propellant, has introduced a new product to their powder line.

Called "FLASH," the new powder is the first blackpowder replacement specifically designed for the flash pan in flintlock muzzleloaders. Like BlackMag XP, "Flash" is non-hygroscopic, is moisture resistant and is actually recoverable after exposure to moisture, has a low ignition temperature to ensure faster, sure-fire ignitions and is non-fouling, is non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradeable. The granulation size of "Flash," 40 to 50 microns in size, is comparable to FFFG blackpowder and is designed to optimize ignition in both old and new style flintlock flash pans with varying flash hole sizes. "Flash" is designed solely as a priming powder in flintlock muzzleloaders, and should not be used in the bore as a primary charge.

"We realize in today's muzzleloading market the number of flintlocks used is comparatively small," says Craig Sanborn, President and CEO of BlackMag Industries. "But it is an important and dedicated fraternity, and with blackpowder becoming increasingly difficult to find we wanted to provide a reliable and viable alternative."

The new "Flash" powder will be packaged in convenient 150-grain, waterproof speed loaders designed for field application.

For more information both dealers and consumers are invited to contact BlackMag Industries directly or visit the company's web site at www.BlackMagPowder.com.
"Any gun built is incomplete until it takes game!"

The other DWS

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 05:22:34 PM »
Another one of those "well-engineered solutions to a non-existent problem" things,  unless of course availability of FFFF is/becomes an issue.  might work real well in a carbon fibre, titanium, and teflon pizeo-spark flintlock.

northmn

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 05:59:10 PM »
What does it cost?  Mos tof the subs are getting a bit pricy.

DP

BrownBear

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 06:15:43 PM »
I'd rather not use subs, but there are periods when I have to.  Living on a remote island, assuring supplies of black powder is like expecting political parties to put national interest above party interest.  Conventional centerfire powders and subs get shipped in, but you're on your own for real black.  I am grateful it's there for periods when black isn't available to me.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 06:51:48 PM »
What does it cost?  Mos tof the subs are getting a bit pricy.

DP

They are hustling this Black Mag XP at $29.95 per 10 ounce bottle if you can find it in a store.  If you order direct the price is way higher with shipping and hazmat.

This is yet another version of the Black Mag powder.  The guy who first started making Black Mag came out of the old Legend Products that marketed Black Canyon Powder.

This Black Mag is yet another version of the ascorbic acid powder concept first invented by Skip Kurtz.  With the Black Mag they heave in some potassium perchlorate.  This increases the strength of the powder and lowers the ignition temperature.

They claim that with this Black Mag XP you can reduce the size of your normal charge by half and still get the same velocity as with the larger charge of black powder. 
They also claim that this Black Mag XP combustion residue is not corrosive and have reports to prove it.

If you do a little math you see this Black Mag XP costing $47.92 per pound in a gun store that might stock it.

Anybody with an industrial chemistry background might want to look up US Patent 5,633,476 (Cioffe) on the Internet and read the patent in its entirety.

Bill K.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 07:56:19 PM »
I was interested in the comments in MuzzleBlasts about this.  The author said that it seemed fast to him - after he mentioned that he had not fired a flintlock in years.  I am skeptical of human senses for judging flint speeds and decided to see if I could time some. 
In two emails I asked for the ignition temperature and got no answer.  I was told that they would send me a quanity to test.  I replied that I would be interested in timing the pan ignition and also its ability to ignite a barrel charge, and that I judged Swiss Null b would be his strongest competition.  I was told that samples would be mailed to me.  so far they have not arrived.

If I receive samples i will report the results of any timing here.  I would probably do a side-by-side test with Swiss even though I have valid nmbers on Swiss already.  That would rule out weather/humidity conditions.
Regards,
PLetch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Harnic

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 09:23:21 PM »
Thanks Pletch, I await your results.  The stuff sounds too good to be true, as usual for subs!

Daryl

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 11:42:59 PM »
Yes - don't get too excited, Harry - all of the new powders are WONDER powders.  The results, we find are, "I Wonder where the rifling went".

The other DWS

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 01:05:38 AM »
maybe they'll work better in smoothbores :D

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 01:13:04 AM »
I have no great expectations, since they don't seem to want to give an ignition temp.  After reading the original patent, (thanks Bill K.), they appear to add the corrosive stuff to lower ignition temp. 

All that said, I have just enough scientist in me to try to keep an open mind.  My gut tells me it will be slower in the pan than ffg and probably better than cannon grade.  But, that is what testing is for.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Jeff Peters

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 02:11:52 AM »
Thank God for Larry
His test will prove wether or not it's any good
Until then I'll stick with the good old tried and true 4f

caliber45

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 02:45:47 AM »
Pletch -- As one irritated by others' meanderings "off-target" on some threads, I apologize ahead of time to most forum participants for this one. Let me say, as others have, that I join them in appreciating your taking the time to test and verify things that many of us puzzle over (pardon the dangling participle!). And then let me congratulate you for saying you're going to "try to" sort out things, rather than saying "I'm going to try AND sort out things." Butchering of the language irritates the $#@* out of an old newspaperman. Obviously, you're a gentleman of uncommon learning. Thank you! -- paulallen, tucson az

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 05:25:11 AM »
I have no great expectations, since they don't seem to want to give an ignition temp.  After reading the original patent, (thanks Bill K.), they appear to add the corrosive stuff to lower ignition temp. 

All that said, I have just enough scientist in me to try to keep an open mind.  My gut tells me it will be slower in the pan than ffg and probably better than cannon grade.  But, that is what testing is for.

Regards,
Pletch

Pletch,

The thing about ignition temperature is not the whole picture.  It is a question of how fast it "open burns".  You may recall way back when we got into the thing about the radiant heat wave and the length of time it is present.  Longer equals cooler as far as igniting a main charge goes.

You may give some thought to the high-speed photography routine on it compared to Swiss.

When I worked on the ascorbic acid powder concept in its various forms I noticed the "cool burning" property one of the ascorbic acid powder crowd mentioned in a trade article on the "Longrifle" powder that never came out.  With a flinter for positive ignition you need both the high temperature and the very fast open burn rate.
So give some thought to both temperature and flame time.

Bill K.

Daryl

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 05:47:05 PM »
Lets take a deep breath here, Cal.45.  We all know each other well enough (most of us) to await Larry's tests. That the stuff is many times worse than the corrosive primers of WW1, we also know.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 07:20:04 PM »
Bill,
You brought me back to reality.  I was tunneled in on ignition temp and forgot about burn rates.   I can think of a number of experiments to compare this with real BP.  I'd like enough to time  barrel charges ignited by  a flintlock.  Maybe timing "Flash" ignite a barrel charge followed by Swiss null B igniting the same charge. 

When this stuff comes I'll want to get with you and formulate a plan.  My last email from them was Feb 2.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2010, 04:13:34 AM »
Bill,
You brought me back to reality.  I was tunneled in on ignition temp and forgot about burn rates.   I can think of a number of experiments to compare this with real BP.  I'd like enough to time  barrel charges ignited by  a flintlock.  Maybe timing "Flash" ignite a barrel charge followed by Swiss null B igniting the same charge. 

When this stuff comes I'll want to get with you and formulate a plan.  My last email from them was Feb 2.

Regards,
Pletch

I will sit back and watch this evolve.

The folks that make this stuff have the ideal opportunity to prove their claims through your work.  If they have confidence in their claims they would welcome to offer to look at their product with open arms.

Bill K.

arcticap

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 07:38:47 PM »

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 10:05:12 PM »
Here's a PDF of the Muzzle Blasts article about it:

http://emainehosting.com/MDM-Muzzleloaders/documents/Raychard-Feb2010-flash-article.pdf

A true classic!!

>One is the fact that Flash is basically Black Mag XP powder.<
>has none of the corrosive ingredients in some other substitutes,<

Potassium perchlorate is not corrosive in a gun??

Bill K.

roundball

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 11:17:53 PM »
Anybody know what constitutes the classification of real BP as an 'explosive' but does not classify this substitute priming powder the same way...for example, if its as fast as Goex 3F how does it not get classified as an 'explosive'


Chemical ingredients alone?

Ignition temperature alone?

Burn rate alone?

Some formula of the above?

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2010, 05:31:42 AM »
Anybody know what constitutes the classification of real BP as an 'explosive' but does not classify this substitute priming powder the same way...for example, if its as fast as Goex 3F how does it not get classified as an 'explosive'


Chemical ingredients alone?

Ignition temperature alone?

Burn rate alone?

Some formula of the above?


I don't know all of the details but from what I understood you stick a detonator in one container in a case.  I think it relates to what it does to the ground under the case or the containers around the one with the detonator.

The test is a bit of a joke.  Black powder has a rapid "open burn rate".  Generally the subs have slow or poor open burn rates.  The theory being that this makes them safer to handle in the event of an accidental ignition.

So far with the subs.  None could be used as a fast and reliable means of iginition in a flintlock.  The ability to do that would almost insure that it would end up classified as a class A explosive.

When I first looked at the 777 sub I was shocked by its open burn rate once ignited.  Hard to tell it apart from black powder in that respect.  But it does have a very high ignition temperature which sort of saves the day for it.

GOEX's Pinnacle powder would ignite the main charge in my flinter when used in the lock pan.  But it did so very slowly because it had a slow open burn rate.

Normally the ascorbic acid based powders have very slow open burn rates and produce little heat while burning.  You could put a pile in the palm of you hand, ignite it, and not get burned.  My amigo Skip used to demonstate that.


In any event Roundball the whole test used to define flammable solids versus explosives, when it comes to our peopellant powders, is little more than a bureaucratic joke.


Bill K.

Ole Doc

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 06:24:32 AM »
  Why try to fix what ain't broke ...
Black powder works and has for generations in the same guns.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 06:51:17 AM »
Hi Grizz,
Please don't read my curiousity as a desire to change from black powder.  I have read and heard many claims about BP subs.  Having been interested in flint guns I have had no use for them.  When this recent claim about a priming powder came along, I decided that this is something I can test.  I have pan ignition times on ffg, fffg, 3 types of ffffg, and Swiss Null B.  Keeping an open mind, I really feel that I can evaluate their product.    Most admit that their product doesn't ignite well as a barrel charge.  To my knowledge this is the first product that claimed an ability to ignite flintlock pans.  I consider this a significant change in advertising claims.  I'll keep an open mind and run the test if they send it to me.  I'm curious to say the least.
Regards,
PLetch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Ole Doc

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2010, 07:34:39 AM »
I understand ... see HOW FAST they get it too you for testing.
 I remember the dry pan powder from decades back ... it did protect the powder but also made it harder for a spark to ignite.
good luck with the trials

roundball

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2010, 04:16:16 PM »

To my knowledge this is the first product that claimed an ability to ignite flintlock pans.  I consider this a significant change in advertising claims.  I'll keep an open mind and run the test if they send it to me.  I'm curious to say the least.
Regards,
PLetch


Yes, never knowing what the antis may cause to happen in the future it pays to keep a leg up on possible alternatives and this could be huge one for flintlock shooters.....if it actually works.

According to the article the stuff comes in little 150 grain containers so I'm assuming/hoping a little container like that wouldn't be all that expensive...when I stumble across some I'm going to buy it and just do "average joe" routine range tests to see if it works without delays, is really usable in practical terms, etc.

BrownBear

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Re: FLASH pan powder substitute
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2010, 05:42:06 PM »
I'm really curious about their "dispenser," too.  Sounds as though it comes prepackaged ready to use, but I just might prefer to dispense it my own way.