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Author Topic: Re: Griffin Rifle in progress -- New sideplate photo  (Read 13144 times)

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress -- New sideplate photo
« on: February 20, 2010, 06:10:33 PM »
First time to build a gun from a blank!

OK so I bought a black walnut stock and .58 Griffin pattern rifle barrrel from Ron Scott, barrel already inlet and RR hole and groove done by Dave Rase  Never seen anything more perfectly done!! :D :D




Decided to build a gun modelled after a 1750 Griffin Rifle he built for a Brittish Officer. I have no pictures of that specific gun but the literature (TRS!) says he apparently built them just like his fowlers,

I have been at work on it for a while and I think I have the buttstock and wrist about  done. Sideplate is not inlet yet and I am in the process of installing the trigger guard.

Your thoughts on the Buttstock and wrist??











OK, now as the wood comes up and meets the top obliques of the barrel you can see it just ends.  Should this be rounded down to meet the standing breech on the top obliques?? ???


What do you think about the sideplate?  It is not inlet, so I can still change it.  I like the design but I am not sure if it will look right. All the Griffin sideplates on FOWLERS that I have seen are fancy pierced. I thought the one concession to it being a rifle might be this sideplate. ;)




Castoff..





Feedback/suggestions welcome.  BTW it is all iron mounted and I got some Van's Bluing on Wayne's recommendation and tried it on the TG..Very nice! I think the tab behing the bow on the TG is too short. Can I soft solder a n extension on it, ya think??
I have a fine thumbpiece in brass to put in the wrist. Do you think the brass will look ok on an iron mounted gun??


I have contracted with a master to engrave the metal parts as soon as I have everything fitted.  He will do it in the English Style. I won't tell you who, and when its all done I will post pics and let you guess!! ::) :o ;D ;D

Thanks for looking and any of your comments.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 12:30:14 AM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 06:20:21 PM »
Here is a breech from an English "coach gun", a short bess-like fusil, ca 1740. I don't know if the Griffin was shaped the same.

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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 07:35:43 PM »
I am not a builder  but I think it looks great.  What I am interested in is your set up.  I want to build a rifle but right now the excuse I am using is that I do not have anywhere to do it.  Your set up appears to be in a kitchen?  I would love to see some details of your table if that is not too much trouble.

Coryjoe
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 08:09:02 PM »
Coryjoe,

I will get some pics to send you.  I bought it from Tip Curtis. I think I got the last one his supplier was going to build.  There are some similar plans in the archives somewhere.  It is reall nice. Not a solid as my work bench in the garage....but a whole lot warmer.... and it keeps my wife interested...particularly in the cleanup!!
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 08:31:32 PM »
Hi Tim,
Below are photos of the rifle I believe you are trying to emulate.  It was made by Benjamin Griffin around 1750 for Archibald Montgomery.  BG's son was the great gunsmith Joseph Griffin of Griffin and Tow fame.  As you can see, the TRS description of it is wrong.




Most British sporting rifles with short barrrels were swamped octagons, a fashion they often referred to as "in the German form". Some with longer barrels had the Spanish form and some that were breech loading deer park guns had swamped round barrels.  In addition, some military version also had round barrels.  Sideplates varied similar to fowlers.  Some were pierced and some solid.

Below are photos showing how I handled the breech area to match the British makers of the time.

 


Good luck with your project.  It looks like it should be a sweet little gun.

dave
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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 01:51:12 AM »
I think the gun looks very nice overall.  The only suggestion I have would be to make a new side plate that aligns the point of the side plate with the point of the side panel.  You might make the new plate a little bit larger too, so that it fits the panel better. 

Take a look at the photo Dave Pearson posted, and you’ll see what I mean.
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 04:03:34 AM »
Tim,  I tend agree with Joe's comment about remaking the sideplate.  I studied it for quite some time.  I knew I did not care for it but I could not come up with the reason why until now.  I will take a stab at putting my thoughts into words.  I think the transitions are to abrupt causing the flow to be broken up between the main body of the side plate and the front and rear extensions.  To me it looks too American.  I do like the flow of the rest of the gun.  You nailed the wrist to the buttstock.
DMR
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California Kid

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 04:46:12 AM »
Tim, heres a pic of the side plate of the English Fowler I finished last year. Might help with ideas. Dave Rase did this barrel inlet as well!
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Offline Dave B

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 08:54:45 AM »
Here is another shot of an English Fowler.




Note that the wood flows down into the standing breach no squared off edge here.
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 06:42:20 PM »
Thanks for all the help!!
  • Acer, DaveB and Dave person, the pictures really help re the wood meeting the standing breech. I will do it.
  • Dave Person, Dave Rase and California Kid, the comments and pictures re the sideplate were the nudge i needed.  I made it before the sidepanel was shaped.. :-[ :-[  And now with your pictures I see what I really want.  I will do my best to recreate the one in the picture of the original. ;D  I noticed on the picture of the original that the rear lock bolt is actually lower than mine, or even your california. It appears that your plate is a little wider from top to bottom than the original and therefore lines up nicely in spite of the bolt location??

    I was gratified to see that I had come up with the general idea without having seen the original...but the original and yours California, are much better shaped and sized to enhance the architecture.

Any thought about soft soldering an extension on the TG tab just behind the bow?  My concern is that with the round wrist the hole will be too shallow in the wood with the tab so short??  California, yours looks strong,   Did you notice that on the picture of the original you cannot see the pin.  On several othe pictures I have seen of only the lock side of original Griffin and other guns I can;t see the pins either!!
Oh it would be nice to be able to hold one of those originals!! :D

This is so much fun!! Thanks again!
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 07:24:40 PM »
Dr Tim,

Nice gun.  I'm working on one of Chamber's English Gentlemen's guns right now, and I wish mine looked as sleek as yours.

I have just one question...... how do you get away with working in your dining room?  I'd have to find a new place to live!!!  You know, the old sawdust in the salad thing.
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 07:33:53 PM »
Thanks Dane...its the kitchen!!!!  Well I have to clean up today cause our small group is coming over tonight!! ;) ;)

She wasn't too thrilled with all the rasping and scraping dust!! ::) ::)

Actually, working in there this winter has caused my wife to suggest that I convert the office in a bonus room over the garage to a gunshop!!!  Take out the carpet, put in 12" pine plank flooring and cabinets and workbench etc (Built in vacuum system (PC) of course  ;D)  I am considering it.  It would be better than having to go out to the garage to use my vice and drill press etc as I do now. 

What do you think???  Should I take her up on it??

I am sure your gentlemen,s gun will be stellar as ususal!!  Can't wait to see it..
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 08:03:51 PM »
Hi Tim,
In the collection of photos that I have of English guns of the period and on the few originals that I handled, I almost never see an example of where they used a pin for the tab behind the triggerguard.  It looks like they generally only pinned the guard in front of the bow and at the tail with no screw or pin attachment anywhere else.  I think the guards, usuall made of soft steel, brass, or silver, where so well fitted to the profile of the gun that they did not need an attachment behind the bow. That is probably why that tab (or is it really just a sprue attachment?) on most cast guards you can buy is often very small.  It is simply inlet into the wood to secure the postion of the guard but no cross pin is used to anchor it in the stock.

I too often get nervous about the small tabs on many cast triggerguards. If you need to pin it and want to add an extension, use a strong solder like silver or low-temp silver (Hi-Force 44) solder.  I did that on the front tab of several guns, but I first dove-tailed the extension in and then soldered it.  On steel or iron guards I weld an extension if needed.  That is a little tricky with cast steel but I had good results every time.   My main problem with the tabs is the front one.  It is usually too short for the pin to be hidden under the sideplate or at least to be located in the flat of the lock panel.  Often the pin is located right on the edge of the lock panel.  You see that on many original guns.  I don't like it and always extend the tab if needed. 

dave
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 09:55:23 PM »
Quote from: Dave_Person on February 21, 2010, 08:03:51 PM

In the collection of photos that I have of English guns of the period and on the few originals that I handled, I almost never see an example of where they used a pin for the tab behind the triggerguard.  It looks like they generally only pinned the guard in front of the bow and at the tail with no screw or pin attachment anywhere else.  I think the guards, usuall made of soft steel, brass, or silver, where so well fitted to the profile of the gun that they did not need an attachment behind the bow. That is probably why that tab (or is it really just a sprue attachment?) on most cast guards you can buy is often very small.  It is simply inlet into the wood to secure the postion of the guard but no cross pin is used to anchor it in the stock.



According to my friend Jim Hash who has been inside some fine English pieces, the rear tail of the trigger guards that did not have pins used a blind hook system.
Mike Brooks used this method on a couple of guns he built for me and my son. There are many pinned period examples as well.

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 10:41:51 PM »
I like the blind hook Idea as I have a trigger plate that screws to the stock just in front of the tab behind the bow and a hook could go there easily and be held in by the plate ( Hollenbaugh Double action single set trigger).  Hmmmmm.
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Offline Bill-52

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 01:25:16 AM »
Tim,

I'm too inexperienced to comment on your rifle other than it looks real nice.  The wrist/lock panel/lock plate transition is very pleasing to the eye.

However, regarding converting the office to a gun shop....go for it!!  I'm building my rifle in a freestanding, unheated workshop.  I have to turn the space heaters on an hour or more before I go out and start working on the rifle.  The electric bills are killing me!  The kitchen was never an option...... ;D

Bill
Shivering in New England
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 04:55:34 AM »
Dr Tim,

   OK now, do you really have to ask???  Go for it.  We bought a new house a year ago, and I converted a 4th bedroom into my shop.  It's do darn hot in AZ in the summer to work in the garage, so now I have a place in the A/C to work.  The only thing still in my garage, are the mill and grinder.

   Keep us posted with more photos.

    I really like what you have so far.

    I'm a little worried about the tang carving.  I've never really done any English styled carving before.
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Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 05:03:41 AM »
My shop is relegated to a small corner of the basement, off of the laundry room.  The wife put down a carpet remnant that I have to wipe my feet on before I leave the shop area.

If I track chips or dust into the occupied portions of the house I'm dead meat.  My problem is the dogs and cats want to be in the shop with me while I work, and they don't wipe their feet!
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 05:19:21 AM »
yeah The carving like Dave Person and California did so well..  I figure I will probably use up all the scrap from this blank practiceing that carving!!!.... Its the only carving so it really needs to be well done!!!  Like I need that pressure??

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Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 06:55:50 PM »
Hello Doc. You got a fine fowler coming along there. I like the shape and lines of the wrist to butt and lock- sands side plate (as noted previously). That walnut has some character to it. That wrist looks so slender. How long is that trigger pull? I got short arms and most of my rifles end up looking somewhat stubby as a result of it. As for setting up shop in the house - of course convert that "bonus room" into a gunshop! I'm in the process of a divorce and I moved the soon-to-be-EX's stuff out of her craft room and built a reloading bench to replace all her"useless" junk. The room will now become my "gun - hobby - reloading" room --- more space to fill up - OH BOY!!
Quote from: DrTimBoone on February 21, 2010, 07:33:53 PM
Thanks Dane...its the kitchen!!!!  Well I have to clean up today cause our small group is coming over tonight!! ;) ;)

She wasn't too thrilled with all the rasping and scraping dust!! ::) ::)

Actually, working in there this winter has caused my wife to suggest that I convert the office in a bonus room over the garage to a gunshop!!!  Take out the carpet, put in 12" pine plank flooring and cabinets and workbench etc (Built in vacuum system (PC) of course  ;D)  I am considering it.  It would be better than having to go out to the garage to use my vice and drill press etc as I do now. 

What do you think???  Should I take her up on it??

I am sure your gentlemen,s gun will be stellar as ususal!!  Can't wait to see it..
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2010, 07:30:55 AM »
Your gun looks great so far,my only question is will it have a checkered wrist?  Or should i ask if the original Griffin's had checkered wrist's?   Gary
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2010, 03:10:39 PM »
Gary,

Some of the Ben Griffin's had checkered wrists and some didn't ..from the pictures I have been able to see. Some had a thumbpiece and some didn't.  All seem to have a shell carving at the tang.



I would love to checker the wrist.....however I am a beginner at that and I don't want to mess this one up! :D
 
I am going to have someone else engrave the gun with English/Griffin style. My engraving so far is barely backwoods. :-[

Paul, the LOP is 13 3/4" and the drop at the butt is 3" I has 5/16" castoff
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 07:34:01 PM »
Hi Tim,
I have a copy of Neal and Backs's book "British Gunmakers: Messrs Griffin, Tow, and Bailes".  In it they mention that guns made by Benjamin Griffin did not have checkering.  They usually had a thumbpiece and some sort of shell carving but no checkering.  BG was actively turning his business over to his son Joseph during the 1750's and checkering did not start to become much of a fashion in England until about 1770 (the year BG died) although I have seen photos of a few checkered guns dating to the mid 1760's (William Bailes). Griffin signed guns with checkered wrists are probably all made by Joseph.  The gun style you are emulating dates from 1730-1755 well before checkering was evident on British guns.   One little interesting tidbit is that Benjamin Griffin and William Bailes appear to be two of the earliest makers of side by side double guns in England (mid 1750's) although double guns were made in France much earlier.

dave
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 08:03:13 PM »
Thanks Dave!!  Good to know.  I can't find that book anywhere.  I guess I will have to put my local library to work
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Re: Griffin Rifle in progress
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2010, 01:29:33 AM »
wouldn't you just love THAT silver sideplate?   Whaddaya bet our jewelery artist DaveC could make you one?  of course it'd' probaly cost more arm's and legs than I could spare for sure.

I just checked all the major book sites for the book too  (I keep'em in my favorites/bookmarks) and no one is showing a copy for sale
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 01:42:39 AM by The other DWS »
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