Signing the fowler

[Dave K]

As I approach the end of this 1760-1770's British style fowler build, it is time to think about signing the gun. Though I am still a newbie to fowler style guns, of all the original guns I recall seeing in person or in books, it appears as if fowlers were signed on the lock and not on the barrel. Of course, I want to sign it where it is supposed to be. I can get my name on the lock, but my name is over 20 letters long, so the octagon to round barrel does have more room on it, then there is on the lock. But, I can get it signed, where ever it is supposed to be. Where is it proper for a gun of this period to be signed?

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I have seen some on butt plate.

[wvmtnman]

I have always been under the impression that the name of the person who built the gun should be on the top barrel flat.  As for a name on the lock, I personally think that the name should be reserved for the person who built the lock.  Have you ever thought about just putting you last name on the barrel?  or is you last name 20 letters long?
                                                                              Brian

[James Rogers]

Dave, I have seen and have pictures of many English fowling pieces with barrels signed by the maker. This holds true even when using a barrel made by someone other than the one making the gun. I will send you a couple of pics for your documentation thru email.

Dr. Tim, I have only seen owner's names on butt plates but never the maker.

[James Rogers]

I have always been under the impression that the name of the person who built the gun should be on the top barrel flat.  As for a name on the lock, I personally think that the name should be reserved for the person who built the lock.  Have you ever thought about just putting you last name on the barrel?  or is you last name 20 letters long?
                                                                              Brian

For an English gun, The maker could have stamped his name on the lock plate and the barrel.

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
English guns were either stamped with the makers mark or signed on the top flat or portion of the barrel.  I think that was probably a requirement of the gunmakers guild at the time.  However, often the gunmaker did not make the barrel as in many cases in which high quality (best in the world at the time) Spanish barrels were used.  In those cases the English maker usually signed the lockplate.  Some locks were signed, usually mid way between the frizzen spring and flint cock.  Some were in the middle of the plate and some oriented near the bottom just above the molding or bevel on the plate.  Often both the lock and barrel were signed or stamped.

dave

[Dave K]

wvmtnman, well my name in actuality is David Katterheinrich. Sure I have thought about abbreviating my first name, but years from now, the initial "D" could stand for many names. I see many old school year books, that at one time it was fashionable to only use the first initial. I may even add the initial to my middle name as in my area, my name is fairly common. Now 60yrs. later, we no longer know what their first name was. Thanks to all for all the responses and thanks James for sending pictures, as I look forward to seeing them. There are not many things in life that you can sign to leave your mark that you were here, so this is one item anyhow. Dave, thanks for your post as well!

[Acer Saccharum]

Block letters, ca 1740 coach gun
Pickfatt, London.



http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_6147.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_6198.jpg

[Dave K]

Acer,is there a name on the lock as well? It also seems that many times the English guns will have the place where the gun was made, as well as the makers name.

[Acer Saccharum]

Yep, and the signature is so long, it goes under the tail of the frizz spring.



inside looks dead ringer for Chambers Roundfaced English:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_5150.jpg

[Fullstock longrifle]

James, members of the Hills family signed their names on the top extension of the butt plate.  I've seen several guns signed by the gunsmith Medad Hills in that manner.

[James Rogers]

James, members of the Hills family signed their names on the top extension of the butt plate.  I've seen several guns signed by the gunsmith Medad Hills in that manner.

You are most correct Fullstock.
My mind naturally goes to English made pieces while the OP's post clearly says is concerning British "style" fowling pieces. I should have caught that but I see "English" and run with with it sometimes. 

I assume British "style"  is referencing the term Mr. Grinslade uses to describe the New York and Phili. guns that resemble the large English waterfowling pieces.

I believe most of the names found on locks of these styles of guns were of the lock manufacturer like Wilson, etc.
If I recall, the barrels in Grinslade's book are for the most part unsigned except for proof and maker stamps. I believe some of the PA British styled guns are marked Philadelphia.

I am working on a English piece that is in cherry and will have the same problem as you Dave K.

 I am looking at two routes. ...

1. a restock of an English gun as if all components of the original English made piece were used. The the barrel or lock (or both) could be signed with the "original" maker's name. In this case it would be my name.

2. An English "styled" gun as if using an import barrel and lock. In this case I would use my English styled maker's mark at the barrel breech of the barrel along with the proofs and just engrave my name and date on the bottom of the barrel.

I am probably going to choose option 1 because
   a. The barrel is only 40" and is more suited to a birding/sporting piece than a huge duck gun.
   b. My interest is more in the south where imported complete guns were predominant.

[Dave K]

James, yes I am referring to Tom Grinslades wording on British Style guns. I am building a copy of the BS #5 right now, that is in his book. At the CLA show in Lexington, Ky. this very gun was there along with many of his others. I took many pictures, but I wish I had the chance to take pictures again of this gun and others. The book is very good, but there is always more details that a builder seeks out that just isn't possible when putting so many guns in a book.

I went  with black walnut for the wood. When I get done with this barrel, I will feel like I made it. It is so wavy down the round part it, it looks like a lake during a storm. It is a test of my filing skills to make it look presentable. Next time I get a barrel, I will interview the makers of these barrels to see if they can make a barrel that isn't  this wavy. I will probably do the #1 option that you mentioned as well. Another thing I would probably do if I built another. I would use a 16ga. barrel. The barrel profile is the same as a 20ga. so the gun would be lighter along with the potential to handle more lead. I will say though, the gun is very light, as it is now. I have not weighed it, but it is light and seems to handle like a dream.

[keweenaw]

The barrel I got from Ed Rayl to make that same fowler is w/o appreciable ripples.  To get those ripples out use a wide file for your draw filing - a 12" smooth mill will do a good job.  You would have to order it in as most hardware stores don't stock one that big.  I sometime use a draw file that Brownell's sells.  It is only 6" long but it's 1 3/8" wide so it will span a lot of undulations.  It has a bit larger teeth than a 12" smooth mill so will take off material faster.

Tom

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I second the 1 3/8" wide draw file from Brownells.... A like saver for an ol ------ like me!!

Dave K, how are you thinking to finish the blackwalnut??

[Dave K]

Dr. Tim, that is a very good question when it comes to finish color anyhow. I am not fond of light colored walnut, so I am doing a little testing in the barrel channel. I also have some of Jim Klein's bright orange, which may turn that little bit of funky color that black walnut can have and turn it more a little reddish color. I do like a nice fairly dark color that would be typical on a Winchester Model 12. But, I am open to all ideas to test colors. I have 44" of barrel channel to test in. What is your suggestion? The finish on the gun will be Tru-Oil. I will "drag" the last coat of finish to get that satin look.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I am also working on a black walnut stock. you can see it in my thread on the Griffin in progress... I have a lot of scrap wood so I am going to sand a bunch up and try several things including the Dangler's yellow, Ferric Nitrate, garnet shellac, Chamber's oil varnish, and even some Kramer's antique restorer..... anything to get a darker color as I don't like blonde guns.  This wood has a lot of curl in it so I want to bring that out as much as possible.

I got some walnut filler from Chambers that I will try as well.  Are you planning to use any filler??

[Dave K]

It had passed my mind to use BC filler, but I think I will not use it. I do not have any scraps of wood for this gun, so that is why I am using the barrel channel. Always a $#@* shoot when it comes to what to do, on a wood that you are not used to using. I guess I can always strip it and start over if the colors are not to my taste. You build looks good on the fowler you are working on now. I can't say my stock is over blessed with curl and figure, but it is there. As you know, many times the right combination of materials can bring it our even better. The wrong stuff will hide it.

[California Kid]

I used Constatines black filler (same as Chambers) and Chambers oil on the gun in the side plate pic in this thread. This is English Walnut, no stain. Depending on your wood black walnut would probably be darker.
Look up Snyder on this forum, he has finishing walnut down as does Dave Person.

[keweenaw]

You really need to use a filler on black walnut.  It would take a zillion coats of tru-oil and much sanding between coats to get most pieces even close to filled.  If you use the filler correctly it will bring out the grain and not hide it as it's wiped into the pores and not left on the surface.  You can practice your filling technique on any piece of scrap.  As for color, look at the Alex Henry rifle I built that's in this thread http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4318.0  That is English walnut that was fairly light colored and which also had an area of absolutely white sap wood on the bottom of the stock.  With aniline dyes you can blend almost anything and still get a uniform color.  The fill on that stock was done with rotten stone rubbed into the wet finish and then wiped off.  It would take too long to do that with black walnut due to the larger pore sizes and you couldn't do it with tru-oil which doesn't take kindly to be wiped off as it's setting.

Tom

[Dave K]

I can actually say, the thought of sanding a stained stock to work a filler in, scares the daylights out of me. How do you keep from going through the finish and getting into the stained wood and then making it look splotchy? Many thoughts of gone through my head. One of them has been to use the "flour" of the walnut stock I got from sanding the stock and then staining that flour to rub into the grain after I have already stained the stock. I had never heard of using rotten stone as filler before, but it sure appears to look and work well. Of course BC has a filler/sealer, but the same fear of rubbing through this finish scares me. I ususally don't start sanding between coats, until there are 6+ coats on the wood.

[keweenaw]

Dave,

If you're going to wet sand your stock with a finish to fill it you can't stain, the color is going to have to come from the interaction between the finish and the wood or you have to use a colored finish over the filled stock.  Doing a sanded in finish on a carved stock would be hard to do.  Back when I used a lot of tru oil - I've stopped using it since there are better finishes that are easier to use - I would frequently do some sanding on the finish.  After you have about three coats on you can carefully sand on the hardened finish with 400, used dry, to even things out.  You just have to be careful not to cut through the edges. 

One really can't beat the commercial fillers on black walnut.  You stain or dye the stock first, then use the colored filler, wiping it on and then just as it starts to haze you wipe it off the surface wiping across the grain.  They dry very fast so do a small section of the stock at a time.  The fillers have it all over trying trying use sanding dust as the minerals in them are exceedingly fine and easily go into the pores.  On an open grained piece of black walnut you (or at least I) have to do the filling at least twice to achieve an acceptable level of fill.

Tom

[Dave K]

I will need to look into fillers with color in them. The only one I am aware of is the black bone meal. Of course the only sealer/filler I am ware of is also BC's sealer/filler. I see we are on the same page as far as sanding on a stained stock. I have sanded on non-stained stocks and have used the slurry of the wood created by sanding to fill the grain, but that was on English walnut stocks. I have used other finishes before Tru-Oil, but never were satisfied with their durability and weather proofing. Tung oil is nice and easy to work with, but doesn't seem to be very durable, but it is easy to touch up. I started using BLO, but that stuff is not for me. I truly can't beleive it is PC correct as every old gun I have handled, had a much harder finish on it, then BLO will provide. Either these guns were all refinished in their history or BLO was not used to begin with. I guess once I started using Tru-Oil, I stopped looking as I was content with it. I have probably done about 25+guns with it now.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I have a highly figured piece of black walnut in the rifle I am building.  The only carving is the tang area as it is English and quite plain from a carving perspective..... The raw wood is a little on the purple side.  I tried several approaches to staining etc. on scraps.

My findings so far....
Dangler stains, especially golden brown make nice colors, but tend to subdue the grain.
The Filler I got from Chambers makes the pores very black...............
Ferric Nitrate is great if you want a black stock

The prettiest redish gold brown seems to come from just using Chambers Traditional oil finish.... Nice golden highlight, shows off the grain and makes the curl pop............

Now this is with only a couple of coats of finish and of course with the chambers it is not quite filled yet...

It is causing me to lean toward using only the Chamber's oil finish.

I am not ready to finish the stock by any means yet but was just trying to see what it was likely to look like when finished....

Your thoughts, suggestions, recommendations etc??

[keweenaw]

Tim,

Try this.  Wipe on a coat of Chamber's finish then dust on some rotten stone with a tooth brush.  Wipe it into the pores with your fingers.  As the finish starts to tack wipe it off across the grain with a paper towel or the heel of your hand. The rotten stone won't give the deep black fill that the constantines does.  Alternatively you can buy some uncolored filler from the paint store.  Choose one of those many cans of pigmented stain you undoubtedly have sitting around that is a walnut color you like, don't stir it up.  Remove a small dollup of the filler and put it on a piece of foil.  Use a popsicle stick to remove a small amount of the pigment from the bottom of that can of stain and blend it into the filler to make it a nice brown.  Fill your practice piece with that, rubbing it in thoroughly, letting just start to haze and then wipe it off the surface.  The use the Chamber's finish after the fill has had a day to dry.

Tom