Author Topic: Trends in longrifle building  (Read 21159 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • Personal Website
Trends in longrifle building
« on: February 23, 2010, 10:00:37 PM »
For those who have been around this stuff for a while, I would like to get your thoughts on how contemporary building trends, styles and approaches have changed and evolved over time.  I find it's interesting to look back on this.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 01:17:34 AM »
At the moment, I can think of two major trends. I will think of more as soon as someone else posts them.  ;D

One trend is the pursuit of perfection in an artistic and technical sense, and ever increasing use of precious metals in the decoration of rifles. Engraving and carving, and inlay which may be based on a personal story or theme. At the core, is the handmade rifle, continuing the tradition started over 200 yrs ago.

Another is the trend toward historical accuracy, an effort to get back to the roots of a certain style of school, or a piece that 'could have'  been built by a certain maker. There are also 'what if' pieces, to coin EK's phrase, pieces that make use of a known maker's style, but never existed. In this trend, you will find rifles finished just as they would have looked coming off the maker's bench 200 yrs ago, and guns that actually look 200 yrs old.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 02:09:56 AM »
I've seen locks and barrels being left "Bright" instead of browning and blueing. A trend over the last couple of years.
Joel Hall

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19546
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 02:34:35 AM »
There are also trends in the styles of guns folks like to build, and the way they build them.  

In the 1970's and 1980's I noticed several trends happening.  As I look back I think that books drive much of the work that is done.  Kindig's "The Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age" drove recreations of Golden Age Pennsylvania longrifles for decades.

Saving lost skills: At Colonial Williamsburg and other sites, the art and mystery of recreating the longrifle using period techniques was recovered and saved for posterity.  This was the theme of Foxfire books.

High art: In an offshoot or different direction, rifles were being made that resembled originals, but were finer in execution and artistry than all but a handful of originals.  Bivins is a good example of a new school builder in my mind, who sought to improve on the originals while making them easier to assemble, so the art could be given more attention.  By chance, certain styles (good choices) became the norm.  The Lancaster is an example that became the norm in part because of Bivin's Bicentennial rifles.  If he had chosen Reading rifles, or early York or even Maryland rifles, we might not see a million "Early Lancaster" and "Haines" rifles being made.  I like 'em, but it's funny how trends occur.

New Schools Developing: At the same time guys like Herschel House were reclaiming the backwoods artistry of the Southern mountain rifle and developing their own new styles.

Scarce components:  For the average maker in the 1970's and 1980s there were limited components and few if any longrifle or fowler kits as we know them now.  Folks who wanted to make a Bucks County rifle, etc had to work from blanks.  Many to most builds involved the making of some components, and those of us who teethed on William Buchele's book made simple triggers, all the thimbles, nosecaps, sideplates, sights, tenons, and patchboxes as a matter of course.  Most barrels came unbreeched.

Mining the early vein:  Many current builders were strongly influenced by the quest to find the earliest American Longrifles.  There were pioneers there- Shumway of course with his documentation and publishing, Jack Haugh with his early Christians Spring rifles, Monte Mandarino dabbling there before moving on to Euro style stuff.  The mining continues.  Many are inspired when a new early rifle appears- like the Oerter Griffon gun, etc.

Re-emergence of the fowler: Grinsdale's book on fowlers is strengthening the wave of fowlers being made.  This reflects the shooting for fun aspect of the sport, or building for art, because the fowlers offer new stylistic explorations.  In the early days it was all about paper punching.  Now some of us are old enough to shoot squirrels with birdshot.

That was rambling.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 02:36:46 AM by richpierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 03:01:25 AM »
Any trends that can be commented on, from my point of view, have been created by what has been published in Muzzle Blasts, the Buckskin Report, Muzzleloader Mag, and others.  Being here in the Great White North, a virtual gunbuilding desert, I have had to immerse myself in books, starting in the 70's with Buchele's, Bairds's, and Shumway's works.  During those early years, here there was a Hawken trend, in fact a percussion Hawken trend.  It would be ten years before flint rifles began to appear at shoots, and gradually took over in the winner's circle.  The move toward the longrifle and the flintlock was gradual but significant.  Now there is a trend involving smoothbore shooting, and again, it has amazed many that a gun without rifling, without a percussion lock, and no rear sight can hit a mark at 100 yards, and beyond.  It's been a great ride!!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7911
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 06:30:47 AM »
I agree, a great ride that isnt over yet. Trends change like people do but they bring out more of what we like to see by doing so. It is almost spiritual to look at someones new creation in a new school or style. Keep up the good work everyone.

Offline Tommy Bruce

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 06:39:05 AM »
Jim,

I'd say one has to look no further than this message board or building classes put on by guys like you and Ian.  So many experienced builders are willing to share with us novice builders.  I've heard from guys who started in the 1960's that this wasn't always the case.  The level of craftsmanship would be another one.  I doubt that even in the golden age that there were this many talented rifle builders around.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books or too much ammunition”
R. Kipling

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 06:45:29 AM »
Jim,
One trend I  have noticed is the idea of building “copies” of a particular original rifle. Years ago you would never have heard someone say “I’m building rifle #XX from RCA” OR “the Edward Marshall rifle.” Maybe this is simply because the pre-turned stocks, printed and web sources weren’t available but I think it goes beyond that…
 
On the positive side it makes the builder really bear down and study one rifle –seeking out details and measurements. On the negative side it has created a culture of builders that are completely hung up on reproducing one example that happens to survive, from a builder who may have made a hundred different rifles in his career. It reminds me of someone trying to become a painter by copying Van Gogh’s Starry Night or Leonardo da Vinci’s Mona Lisa.  In my opinion one can learn techniques such as stock shaping, carving, or engraving by copying but the work will never have the spirit of period work until the builder can capture the feel of original work without being a copyist.
 
There is also a contradiction between what builders say they are doing and how they actually go about the project. You often will hear someone say  “This rifle isn’t a copy but it is in the style of … (insert makes name or particular rifle)” then see them be obsessed to find a picture of some small detail that wasn’t shown clearly in their sources.

At some point the better modern builders have reached the point where they can trust themselves to be creative within the period and regional style they are working with. I’m not sure they would have ever gotten there is they spent their energy making copies.
Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 06:54:35 AM »
Gary, copying has its virtues as well as its vices. if you want to learn to paint or engrave like a master, you can copy to learn technique. This can leap-frog you light years ahead of where you'd be if you stayed in the home mudpuddle.

Copying does not help your creative vision, but allows you to get a window into the life and times of the master.

I don't mean to denigrate your point; it's just that I believe copying has value. It is a tool to learn with. A candle in the darkness, if you will, until you learn to make your own light.

Tom
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline J. Talbert

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 07:56:33 AM »
Whereas the original "Golden Age" of the Kentucky Longrifle devolved into a period of less graceful architecture, and lesser quality carving and engraving; the "Contemporary Golden Age" has evolved, and still evolving from the lesser to the greater.
This evolution has been fueled by the increased availability of quality components, especially locks and barrels, along with the vast sharing of knowledge by the contemporary pioneers of this new golden age.

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
Thomas Sowell

The other DWS

  • Guest
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 03:42:15 PM »
"Whereas the original "Golden Age" of the Kentucky Longrifle devolved into a period of less graceful architecture, and lesser quality carving and engraving"


Historically speaking;  there was a huge shift in popular thinking beginning in the 1830s and reaching full head in the late 1860s and 70s.  This was our age of industrialization and Americans became progressively more enamoured with the machine crafted items (in almost every phase of their cultural lives) and old "home-made" "hand-crafted" style objects fell out of favor. (obviously in specific cases where precision was required, hand crafted values still held--I'm thinking here of the very high quality competition target rifles)   This trend included almost every physical object, from furniture and housing, tools, jewelery and on and on. Obviously firearms would be included.   However when the USA was approaching its centennial there was a reversal and an popular fad for Log cabinish-ness, spinning wheels, and fringed buckskin, old flintlocks and shoebuckles on big black hats.  Since that cultural spasm there has been a greater appreciation of the antique that has ebbed and flowed as a national popular culture developed as a result of increasing nationwide media.

Mike R

  • Guest
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 04:19:47 PM »
Gary, copying has its virtues as well as its vices. if you want to learn to paint or engrave like a master, you can copy to learn technique. This can leap-frog you light years ahead of where you'd be if you stayed in the home mudpuddle.

Copying does not help your creative vision, but allows you to get a window into the life and times of the master.

I don't mean to denigrate your point; it's just that I believe copying has value. It is a tool to learn with. A candle in the darkness, if you will, until you learn to make your own light.

Tom


I agree with this--even the old master artists learned by copying previous masters' works and often their own teacher's works--still happens today in the artworld--but led to the saying, "it is a poor student who does not exceed his master"--meaning that a student should have an advantage by learning the master's technique--a leg up on developing his own style and skills...

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 04:21:45 PM by Mike R »

Offline Tom Currie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1294
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 04:24:54 PM »
Gary's quote "At some point the better modern builders have reached the point where they can trust themselves to be creative within the period and regional style they are working with. " is spot on for me.

After studying longrifle art for some length of time now, I know what looks right to me and what doesnt. However creating art within that context that looks right is still a challenge for me. As I stock up my Christian Spring inspired build I am constantly thinking about how to be creative yet stay within that school.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 05:52:33 PM »
At some point the better modern builders have reached the point where they can trust themselves to be creative within the period and regional style they are working with. I’m not sure they would have ever gotten there is they spent their energy making copies.
Gary


There is a trend which Gary points out, a push to express oneself artistically within a certain time period or region, using the styles and motifs of the period as your artistic language. If asked which do I most identify with, it would be this trend.

Copying as a means to get to this point is entirely valid. Studying originals to learn the vocabulary is imperative. This becomes the artist's toolbox. The artist will use the aforementioned as a launching pad, while the copyist will forever remain on the ground.

Tom
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7019
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2010, 07:24:16 PM »
Hi Folks,
I think the single most important trend is the availability of information that did not exist 20 years ago except to a privileged few builders and scholars.  Excellent books and the internet have changed that dynamic incredibly.  This forum is part of that change.  That enabled builders to advance more rapidly, spread detailed information about original styles much more widely than before, share work tricks and tips, and facilitate a diversity of styles and objectives.  Perhaps, if there is any real trend in styles it is simply an explosion of diversity from "aged instant antiques"" to bench copies" to "fantasy guns".  I think there is also a general increase in skill and quality compared to 20-30 years ago.  As an example, I probably would never have developed or indulged my interest in building 15th-18th century British and European guns 20 years ago.  I would not have had access to information resources.  That changed dramatically with the internet.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2010, 07:32:58 PM »
Gary, copying has its virtues as well as its vices. if you want to learn to paint or engrave like a master, you can copy to learn technique. This can leap-frog you light years ahead of where you'd be if you stayed in the home mudpuddle.

Copying does not help your creative vision, but allows you to get a window into the life and times of the master.

I don't mean to denigrate your point; it's just that I believe copying has value. It is a tool to learn with. A candle in the darkness, if you will, until you learn to make your own light.

Tom


Tom,
I don't understand why you seem to be disagreeing with what I said. I can't help but feel that I made the same points --- that copying has its values --- that you did.

I said: "On the positive side it makes the builder really bear down and study one rifle –seeking out details and measurements."

AND "In my opinion one can learn techniques such as stock shaping, carving, or engraving by copying but the work will never have the spirit of period work until the builder can capture the feel of original work without being a copyist."

Gary
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 09:43:12 PM by flintriflesmith »
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

northmn

  • Guest
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2010, 07:48:43 PM »
One of the trends has been made more reasonable with the development of "kits" and the ability of some to inlet swamped barrels into blanks through machining techniques as David Rase does.  When I started in the 70's straight barrels were more the norm because they could be easily inletted with routers or table saws.  One builder I knew that sold a few guns would not look at a swamped barrel.  The guns were also lighter using slimmer barrels.  Today the trend is going back to the more original swamped barrel.  Also, more original type locks are available for use.  A problem with kits, as an example, is that there are probably more Isaac Haines rifles built around that one style than he ever built.  The increase in smoothbore interest is also another area.  Smoothbores in my area used to be NWTG's.  Now we are seeing more fowlers.

DP

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • Personal Website
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2010, 09:21:54 PM »
Dave Person mentioned what he beleives to be a generl trend of increasing quality of guns being produced.  I guess I would have to agree in general, but viewing the best work done twenty thirty or even forty rears ago I often wonder if the top notch stuff being built today has progressed or for that matter even stands up to what has been done in the past.  There are a few examples of todays work which does, but it seems to me the amount of work being produced that pushes the limits is less.   I may be off base with this, but it's something I often wonder. 

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2010, 09:56:25 PM »
I think that most builders working 30-40 years ago had a lot less in the way of resources at their fingertips to study.  But this actually led to some very good things in some aspects - those who really wanted to understand had to seek out the opportunity to study and handle originals and developed a real grasp of those pieces, moreso than we can derive second or third hand from photos.  I think perhaps having less examples on hand to study also necessitated in people filling in the gaps with their own creativity. Yes - this produced some rifles that look really "wrong" in hindsight, but as Jim pointed out, it also brought out some wonderful artistic expression in the best makers.  Look at the work Jim Chambers, Wallace Gusler, Gary Brumfield, Rudi Barr, John Bivins, Jack Haugh, Earl Lanning, Herhsel House  and others (sorry for omitting some as I know some of them are on the board here) were doing in the 1970s and it is humbling given all the resources we have available today.  It still holds up with the best being turned out today, in my book.

One very positive trend that I would attribute to the availability of resources (primarily over the internet but also there are now more regional shows and new books) has really become apparent in the past few years on this board.  This is the awareness and appreciation of, and interest in building, longrifle and fowler styles that were traditionally outside of the primary focus areas of Pennsylvania like Lancaster and York styles.  People today are choosing to build some of the late flint period southern styles, upper Susquehhanna, Kentucky, New England pieces; early guns based on those made at Christians' Spring, etc.  A huge resurgence of interest in iron mounted late flint southern rifles.  Part of this is that more good examples are coming to light due to the graciousness of the collectors who share them, and are becoming more known via tools like the "Virtual Museum"; in some cases attributions of specific pieces are evolving as we learn more.  Some of these styles are now also approaching that mystical "200 year old" threshold, which seems to maybe put the times and places they are from more into the same context of early American history as the Revolutionthat people associate with being "early."  and, in some cases, I think people just want to build something different.  

Guy
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 10:36:02 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7019
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2010, 10:21:18 PM »
Hi Guy and Jim,
Please don't misunderstand me.  I interpreted Jim's question as referring to longrifle makers as a whole not just to the top people.  I don't think the best makers of today are any better than the best makers of the 1970' and 80's.  But I think there are more good and highly skilled makers now compared to then because of access to information (and workshops, classes, shows, virtual museums etc.).  The top makers of today will stack up every bit as well as any makers in the past. 

Jim is there another interpretation to your question?  Are you perhaps asking whether longrifles as a living art form are still evolving?  Are you thinking that today's makers are simply copying the creativity of past makers and inventing nothing new or interpreting old ideas in new ways?

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2010, 10:41:32 PM »
There is also a trend toward sharing techniques, sharing information on how to accomplish a certain task. There is much more emphasis on education, both technical and historical.

As the quality and authenticity of the contemporary builds moves toward higher levels, the public is becoming more discerning and interested.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2010, 10:51:27 PM »
Hi Dave - sorry - I did not mean to give the impression that  I disagreed with you or that the availability of information was a negative thing - I think it is a tremendous advantage that we now have.  I believe that in general, there are many more builders out there today building really nice rifles than there were 30 years ago - when I walk through the CLA show I am ceaselessly amazed at how many folks now are doing really good work, often with only a couple of guns under their belt.  But I feel that the work of the really good builders 30 years ago still holds up with the best today - which says a lot when you consider how many more choices we have to start from today with regard to information, locks, hardware, etc.

And heck - current or past - they all build better rifles than I do  ;) 

Guy

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • Personal Website
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2010, 11:27:46 PM »
Dave,

No don't think I was looking for any other particular interpretation to my question.  I agree with you about the general quality level of guns being built today.  Just was sort of taking it a step further in comparing the best work of different eras.  This is something I always wonder about when I see some of the fantastic work that's been done in the past.  Thanks for the input of all.  It's been interesting.

Jim

Hi Guy and Jim,
Please don't misunderstand me.  I interpreted Jim's question as referring to longrifle makers as a whole not just to the top people.  I don't think the best makers of today are any better than the best makers of the 1970' and 80's.  But I think there are more good and highly skilled makers now compared to then because of access to information (and workshops, classes, shows, virtual museums etc.).  The top makers of today will stack up every bit as well as any makers in the past. 

Jim is there another interpretation to your question?  Are you perhaps asking whether longrifles as a living art form are still evolving?  Are you thinking that today's makers are simply copying the creativity of past makers and inventing nothing new or interpreting old ideas in new ways?

dave

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2010, 11:36:43 PM »
Really found this thread interesting and it has taken me back down memory lane, as well.

I very much liked Gary's comment of "At some point the better modern builders have reached the point where they can trust themselves to be creative within the period and regional style they are working with."

I have nothing against someone who wants an exact duplicate of an original style gun as they can get.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't believe the original gunsmiths tried to exactly copy even their own work on every rifle.  (Barn or Trade rifles the possible exception to keep costs down, of course.)

Back in the time period.............Maybe on this rifle you make the carving a bit different to show off the figure of that particular stock. Maybe on this rifle you file the triggerguard  or ramrod thimble decorations a bit differently to suit your whim or try something new.  Maybe on this rifle you change the engraving a bit so you don't get in a slump and try something different?  I also doubt every customer would want an exact copy of the gun his neighbor had, especially when the customer was ordering what we today would call a custom rifle.  I could see a customer walking in and saying, "I like the carving on that gun, but the triggerguard on that gun, but the thimbles on that gun, and I'd like this done differently on my gun.....etc."

I believe part of the beauty of the early rifles is that the gunsmiths could do things differently and to his and his customer's tastes.  Then the rifle is purely the customer's rifle and his alone.  

Gus

Modified to add:  Of course, I realize I'm a bit different than many people.  If I need to buy a hammer, I'm going to look at and feel every one of the type I want the store has.   When I had to get a pick mattock in California, Home Depot had 23 of them and I looked at all of them.  I put the ones back that had more twisted or warped blades and other things till I was down to three.  I kept looking and swinging them a bit unitl one of them "told me" it was the right one to buy.  A retired construction worker came up and told me he had never seen anyone choose a mattack that carefully.  I grinned and asked him where I could find the blank mattock handles.  He asked, "What for?"  I told him I wanted one that was a bit longer..........  He just sort of shook his head and directed me to where the blank handles were located.   

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 11:53:18 PM by Artificer »

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Trends in longrifle building
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2010, 12:52:02 AM »
This thread has reminded me of something from back in the 1950s that was probably a throwback to much earlier. A young aspiring rifle maker asked an oldtimer about hardening main springs. The response was, "I learned it the hard way and I'll be d***** if I'm going to tell you." Men scratching out a livelyhood from building and repairing guns were almost as protective of their hard earned knowledge as the guilds of Europe had been centuries earlier!

Fast forward to the first Gunsmithing Seminar at Western Kentucky University in 1981. Hershel House from Woodberry, Wallace Gusler from Williamsburg, John Bivins from Winston Salem, and Lynton McKenzie from Tucson, were all instructors who freely shared their knowledge and experience with the students. Since then over 1200 students, of all experience levels, have attended the WKU seminars!  


Gary
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 05:43:16 AM by flintriflesmith »
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com