Author Topic: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.  (Read 6745 times)

Offline Rolf

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Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« on: February 25, 2010, 08:00:01 PM »
I found a formula that was supposed to be the nieder rust bluing formula.

1. Mix 20ml cons.muractic acid(HCl) + 20ml cons.nitric acid (HNO3)
2. Add degreased steel wool until it stops reacting.
3.Add water to make 200ml solution

This resulted in a thick black sludge, that I doute will work.
Is there something wrong with the formula?

Best regards
Rolfkt


keweenaw

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 08:15:47 PM »
You've made what everyone calls aqua fortis!  The gunk means you've added too much iron.  The resulting stuff is a complex of ferric chloride and ferric nitrate and God knows what other iron compounds. I've never used this formula but if I were doing it it would stop adding steel wool when I got a nice clear brown color - maybe about 12 grams or less.  That will yield an acidic ferric chloride/ferric nitrate mix which will be a pretty aggressive rusting agent.  I'm guessing but I would think that if used full strength for later coats you'll need to be careful not to remove the rust from the initial coats.  Maybe do a couple coats full strength, then a couple at 1/2, strength, and then a couple at 1/4 or less strength.

Tom

The other DWS

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 08:27:10 PM »
I've used Niedner a number of times in the past. both for bluing modern handguns and browning replicas.   I like it a lot,  it's a slow process but it gives a real durable finish.

 Somewhere or other I have Angier's book on Firearmes Bluing and Browning  and I think it used to be in Dixies reference section in the old catalogues.     If I can find my book I'll edit this post to include the formula

FWIW : I recall some sludge forming in the bottom of the brown glass chemical bottle I kept it in

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 10:29:33 PM »
I used Aqua Fortis to brown my barrel. Use a damp box, and you have a brown barrel in a day or two.

Tom
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Scott Semmel

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2010, 03:37:06 AM »
Never used that formula, it is Agua Regis based, as is the formula for whakun bay. Whakun Bay is the formula I use never had a problem product comes out light yellow.

Joe S

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 03:45:01 AM »
You might try some other source for iron.  I’ve never liked steel wool.  Rusty barbed wire is the local favorite, but any source of iron will probably do.  Wrought iron would be about as PC as you can get if you can find some.  You should end up with a solution that looks like strong tea.

I don’t know what effect the HCl has on your concoction.  Aqua fortis is usually made with just nitric acid.

Scott Semmel

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2010, 06:36:09 PM »
I found the formulas from The original owner of Whakun Bay as posted on this forum a few years ago. The instruction contain formulas for an aqua fortes and an aqua regia based product.
"So, here we go... 300 ml (10 fl-oz) of conc HNO3 (15-16 Molar), 240 ml (8 fl-oz.) of conc. HCl (10.5-12 Molar), mix the acids, in large, heat-tolerant container, add about 30 grams (~2 oz.) of 4d finish nails, do this outside, depart the immediate premises and allow the iron to dissolve, liberating NO2 gas, very dangerous, so get out of there, and isolate the system from any metal objects you care for!! Let this exothermic, almost volcanic, reaction occur, allow to cool, then with dionized or distilled water, dilute this matrix to one gallon, or about 3784 ml, total solution. Store final product in amber glass or polyethelene container. This will give you enough browner FOREVER. To make the AQ stain, follow same procedure, except after reaction has ceased, dilute to only about one-third, or to about 1200 ml (~40 fl-oz) of total product or solution. Now, if you are only interested in creating a stock reagent, then one can approach it by taking only the conc. nitric acid, diluting about 2 or 3 to one with water, by adding acid to the water, NEVER, the reverse, and adding degreased steel wool to the acid solution until no more appears to react, then use it for final product in that state of dilution. Pure nitric acid will not dissolve the iron, it must have "excess protons" within the system, whether from another acid, like the HCl, we cited, or from the water, which obviously need not be that pure, as we need H+ ions, not water molecules...
That's the story, not bioengineering or rocket science, but be careful if you undertake this project, as the NO2 is dangerous, noxious, toxic, and some say even carcenogenic... Wear eye protection and rubber gloves when handling any strong oxidants, safety first, stock stain/barrel- browner second!!"


Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2010, 08:58:08 PM »
Not worth all the trouble. I use "Coke "  or pickling vinegar .  Works fine.

Joe S

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2010, 02:01:27 AM »
Quote
Now, if you are only interested in creating a stock reagent, then one can approach it by taking only the conc. nitric acid, diluting about 2 or 3 to one with water, by adding acid to the water, NEVER, the reverse


This is a good recipe for stock stain.  I think it is the method most of us use, and is historically correct as well.  The only thing I would add is that Bill Knight recommends conducting this reaction in an ice water bath to keep everything getting from too hot. I have found it to be good advice.

From time to time, I’ve noticed people complaining about various problems with using steel wool.  The only reason to use steel wool is that the large amount of surface area will speed up the reaction.  It goes fast enough with nails or barbed wire, and the latter ingredients don’t seem to be as problematic as steel wool.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Nieder home made rustbluing solution, - something is wrong.
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2010, 08:09:36 AM »
The best store bought for rust blue is 50-50 Wahkon Bay brown-AF stain (which IMO really ain't worth much for stain, its adulterated with hydrochloric and does not make as good a color or "muddies" the grain). This mix is far better than some rust blue solutions you can buy which often quite working in 3 coats in Montana.
Without some nitric the Browning solution does not make that good a blue.

Dan
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