Couple of lock issues

[Rootsy]

I've had this round faced english lock for a year or so and finally put a flint in it after cleaning it up a bit.  I have run into an issue that I can't quite work out and hopefully someone can help verify the issue.

Everything is free for movement and there is no binding and I have lubricated contact and bearing points.  The frizzen and spring have not been modified other than knocking down the rough cast finish.   It isn't binding on the axle or in the bridle.  

If I set the flint bevel up or down it doesn't matter.  Flint is a Fuller english flint from TOW 7/8 x 1.  Set it so that it is square and just off of the closed frizzen face at half cock.

Upon discharging from full cock the flint strikes the frizzen face and stops dead in it's tracks about half way down the face.  First couple of strikes made some sparks but not much now.  

The face appears to have been hardened as it is difficult to cut with the edge of a file but where the flint strikes and drags it appears to gall, more so at the initial strike point.

I have not modified any geometry other than the sear notch to reduce it as it was deep.  Components have been cleaned up of casting finish (plate, cock, frizzen).  I have not touched the face of the frizzen at all.. It is as delivered.

Thoughts?

[wbgv]

it sounds like the frizzen is not hardened  all the way thru and you are/have scratched the surface hardening off..?

[TgeorgeZ]

Is this the early style English lock from Chambers?

It COULD be the frizzen spring is too strong relative to the mainspring.

I had that problem, along with a few others with this lock.  Replacing the frizzen spring, and filing down the lockplate retaining bolt which had penetrated beyond the outer face of the lockplate to rub against the inside of the hammer did it for me.

[Roger Fisher]

I know for a fact that you can shoot a Durs Egg (for one example) all day w/o a frizzen spring.  Suggest removing that frizzen spring and try her thata way if she then sparks well replace with a weaker friz spring..........Just a thought.

[Rootsy]

Is this the early style English lock from Chambers? 

It COULD be the frizzen spring is too strong relative to the mainspring.

I had that problem, along with a few others with this lock.  Replacing the frizzen spring, and filing down the lockplate retaining bolt which had penetrated beyond the outer face of the lockplate to rub against the inside of the hammer did it for me.

Yes it is a Chambers English.

Lock bolts are not protruding to cause binding... Checked that.

Frizzen does snap pretty stiffly.  It is a pretty wide spring, at least 3/8.

If this is something I can solve myself I prefer to, rather than sending her back south.  FWIW I bought this through Pecatonica, not directly from Chambers.

[Acer Saccharum]

Coupla things to observe:
1)Does the flint cut a groove, and then stop, leaving a burr? If the flint is stopping dead and no spark, AND making cuts in the frizzen, it sounds like the frizzen is too soft.

or

2) If the frizzen is stopping dead, and no marks on the surface, then the frizzen could be too hard, AND the frizzen spring too powerful.

[Rootsy]

I will take a photo or two tonight to upload.  At the strike point it leaves a definitive impression  you can feel with your thumbnail and a couple of drag lines.  No burr. 

[Bill of the 45th]

Call Jim or Sweet Barbie, and they'll help you with your problem, I'm guessing frizzen spring.

Bill

[Rootsy]

Call Jim or Sweet Barbie, and they'll help you with your problem, I'm guessing frizzen spring.

Bill

A likely route... Just wanted to make sure I had my head screwed on straight before wasting their time...

[PIKELAKE]

Rootsy, had the same problem, same lock. Jim replaced the main spring; not strong enough he said.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Is the surface of the frizzen spring and the bearing point of the frizzen where it rides on the spring smooth and well lubricated?  Should not leave marks on the spring.

Does it do the same thing out of the gun as in the gun??

[Rootsy]

Is the surface of the frizzen spring and the bearing point of the frizzen where it rides on the spring smooth and well lubricated?  Should not leave marks on the spring.

Does it do the same thing out of the gun as in the gun??

Yes spring is a ground finish on top and the bearing surface on frizzen is 400 grit finish.  Has been greased and it does it both in the gun and out of the gun.

[coutios]

  Is the flint positioned so it strikes the frizzen at a slight downward angle? If it is thumping the frizzen straight on there may not be enough force to push the frizzen forward and scrape down the face. Might be what is causing the flint to dig in where it first makes contact...

Just something simple to check
Regards
Dave

[chuck-ia]

I jusst looked at mine and I position the flint about 1/4" from the frizzen at half cock, don't know if that would make a difference or not but might be worth trying. Most seem to believe the flint should just about touch the frizzen at half cock, not sure I go along with that, I would think it would all depend on the half cock notch in the tumbler. By the way, the flint contacts the frizzen about 1/3 to 1/4 from the top of the frizzen. chuck

[littlefat]

my chambers english lock did the same thing. I put some polishing compound between the frizzen & frizzen spring and moved it back and forth wiyh my hand about 50 times. cleaned it off and greased it and it worked like a charm

[Rootsy]

Here is where I am at tonight.  

I disassembled the main spring and the frizzen spring and verified nothing was binding.  All is free.

I reassembled only the main spring and installed the flint.  I have tested the flint at various distances from the frizzen face.  1/4" as suggested previously seems to get it going WITHOUT the frizzen spring installed.  With the frizzen spring installed it is still a no-go.  No matter what I do.  

Without the frizzen spring installed she sparks pretty well.   The frizzen spring has galled where the frizzen contacts it.

I need to give Chambers a call and speak with them about the balance.   The cock doesn't seem very "fast".  But that is subjective.  

Couple of photos attached.  

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Stone the frizzen spring and the frizzen bearing that rides on the spring.... need to be really smooth and the spring needs to be flat smooth.... oil with the best you can get!!  

I have had this same problem with the same lock that ws not assembled by Chambers.

[Bill of the 45th]

That frizzen looks like it's too soft, and has chewed thru any hardened steel, it being a new lock.  The mainspring may be too light also.  I'd call Jim, and have him look at the pic's you posted.  That frizzen looks like a couple I have that have a thousand or more rounds off of them, and they're still working.

Bill

[Rootsy]

Thank you for all of the replies and guidance.  Brought it with me today and I'll make a phone call.

Am I to understand that there are parties out there assembling these locks and selling them to retailers who resell them under the Chambers name? 

If you follow any of the photo sources you'll get back to my photobucket account, there are quite a few more photos of it in there.

[Jim Chambers]

I have a Ford truck, and when I push the button for it to go into four wheel drive it won't lock in. I'd like to fix this myself instead of taking it to someone who knows what to do.  Can any of you guys tell me what is wrong with my truck?  OR, OR, OR I could just drive it into the dealership and let them fix it , especially since they know how, have all the tools, and will do it for free   under warranty.  Makes sense to me to let the manufacturer take care of the problem, but that's just me.  Shouldn't the same logic apply when you have a problem with your lock?

[Rootsy]

Jim,

Not to be disrespectful but instead of sarcasm and jabs maybe a reassurance I am not concerned over nothing and a polite offer of assistance. 

My intent is not to throw anyone under any buses in this case and I don't believe I have.  I am only attempting to work out what "may" be a problem and trying to make sure that it is not my problem before I waste your time. 

BTW, I do have a Ford truck that is 11 years old and just shy of 300,000 miles.  Every bit of maintenance and repair has been done by yours truly, including a complete rebuild of the transmission.  I was raised in the manner where you tackle the problems yourself if you can.

I could place this lock in a box and mail it to you but what would I learn in the process? If that makes any sense.

James A. Root

[KentSmith]

Call Jim or send him the lock.  He will rget it fixed and let you know what was wrong.  I know, not as much fun or as rewarding as fixing it yourself, but it doesn't look like much progress is being made toward resolving this issue.

If you really want to learn, take one of Jim's classes on building locks.

[Jim Chambers]

I didn't mean to be sarcastic about this, I just wish you would have given me a call right from the start.  I could have suggested some things to try because, being the maker of the lock, I think I would have been in a better position to analyze the problem.  Being sarcastic again, I wouldn't take my Ford truck to a Mercades dealer to have it fixed.
My best guess, without having the lock in hand, is that the frizzen is too soft.  If you want to try rehardening it yourself, have at it.  But, from my experience I have found that only about one guy in ten is able properly harden one of these frizzens.  Even my assemblers have trouble getting them right 100% of the time, obviously.
As always, if you get one of our locks that does not work properly, just send it back, and we will do everything we can to fix it.

[Dphariss]

Jim,

Not to be disrespectful but instead of sarcasm and jabs maybe a reassurance I am not concerned over nothing and a polite offer of assistance. 

My intent is not to throw anyone under any buses in this case and I don't believe I have.  I am only attempting to work out what "may" be a problem and trying to make sure that it is not my problem before I waste your time. 

BTW, I do have a Ford truck that is 11 years old and just shy of 300,000 miles.  Every bit of maintenance and repair has been done by yours truly, including a complete rebuild of the transmission.  I was raised in the manner where you tackle the problems yourself if you can.

I could place this lock in a box and mail it to you but what would I learn in the process? If that makes any sense.

James A. Root

The problem is after a while patience runs a little thin.
If you want to learn then start buying parts and replacing them. Experience is expensive. I would start with the mainspring and some good oil or grease on the frizzen foot but from this distance? I would need to "feel" the lock.
Someone with experience can pick up the lock, cock it and spark it and have an idea of what is wrong. But if you don't have that level of experience its not something you can do. So until you handle/use or repair a number of locks you are guessing even with the lock in hand. Guessing is expensive.
Send it back, problem solved. They would FAR rather fix it than have discussions of this sort on the forum.

Dan

[TgeorgeZ]

As I said before I had problems with this particular Chambers Lock.

HOWEVER, I found Mr. Chambers staff to be at all times, courteous, helpful and willing to assist me in every regard, even to the point of replacing the problem lock entirely gratis, even when it came second hand through another party.

I would not hesitate to purchase any of their products in the future, including another lock of this type.

Life is a learning experience and if everything you do always goes exactly right from the get go, WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE?  And, if there is no challenge, why bother?