Author Topic: 20 ga fowler shooting low  (Read 11395 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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20 ga fowler shooting low
« on: February 28, 2010, 02:44:09 AM »
I finally got out this afternoon and shot the 20 Ga smoothie. I was shooting 70 gr of 3F with 1 oz of #8 shot 1/2 of a fiber wad over the powder and one over shot card. Distance was 25 yards. The gun is shooting the dense part of the pattern about 8 inches low.

Since I have never fooled with shot my question is, can something like this be corrected by fooling with the load/wad/shot combo or do I need to do something else?

I believe I will make this into a smooth rifle, it is a 1760 style 38 " oct to round in a wide butted stock with a rifle type cheekrest. I didn't have any problem with the cheekrest so I will leave it on and will put rifle sights on it. I assume I can correct the low patterning using rifle sights. Anyone have any experience with using rifle sights to raise the point of impact on shot?

I didn't shoot any round ball because I don't have any for this gun.
Dennis



« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 06:46:23 PM by Daryl »
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Online bob in the woods

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Re: s0 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 03:26:36 AM »
I just raise my eye/ sight picture.  I adjust the comb before I finish the gun. Once I have the sight picture,
it's repeatable, and I'm in business.


roundball

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Re: s0 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2010, 03:27:40 AM »
I have some GM smooth rifle barrels in .54cal and .62cal...adjusting the rear sight on them changes the POI of the shot pattern the same as if it was a PRB...adding a rear sight to your barrel should allow you to do the same thing.

NOTE: One other thing to consider...I found 70grns Goex 3F to be sort of an optimal charge in my smaller bore .28ga...and 80grns is the minimum I use in the larger .20ga bore volume...you might at least try bumping the powder charge up to see if it'll raise the POI any before bothering with a rear sight. (unless you just want a rear sight anyway)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 05:06:16 AM by roundball »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: s0 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 03:34:10 AM »
Quote
I just raise my eye/ sight picture.  I adjust the comb before I finish the gun. Once I have the sight picture,
it's repeatable, and I'm in business.
The stock is not finished and that was part of the reason I wanted to shoot it. Too see if I liked the cheekrest for a fowler (I did). Also to see if I had to lower the comb/cheekrest. Since its shooting low now if I am looking at this right the cheekrest would need to be built up not lowered, correct?If I put sights on it I need low front high rear, right?

Dennis
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Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: s0 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2010, 05:04:27 AM »
Dennis, as a general rule fowlers don't have cheek pieces, though smooth rifles do.  You might also use just an overshot card, or two or three over powder cards, and no wad.  I put about a third of the way across slit in my cards to let the air escape when ramming it down.  You are correct in that you would need to build up the cheek.  I would just tape something on it til I found the proper height I would want.

Bill
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northmn

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Re: s0 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2010, 02:45:43 PM »
A couple of points on low shooting smoothies.  On a shotgun if you are shooting low the cheek area is too low.  That area in a shotgun works like a rear sight.  A friend had an English double 14 that was made for driven birds and had a cheek area so high that we Americans could not "get down on"  He said it worked for rising birds if you aimed right at them but shot very high.  Many of the cheek pounding muskets also shot high.  One method that might help would be to move the front sight back on the barrel from the muzzle so that you raise the barrel more.  There is more than one story of good skeet or trap shooters that have lost the front bead on a shotgun and not noticed it.  Generally high is better than low, good luck.

DP   

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Re: s0 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2010, 04:33:34 PM »
A low front sight, and a higher rear sight will do the trick.  But, if you think about it, you will have to raise up to see the sights correctly [since the rear sight is higher ]   Which means that you'll probably have to lift your cheek off the rest.??  If you can't make the changes at the cheek/comb, is it possible to adjust the barrel inlet?   If nothing eise ...I'd consider giving the barrel a "tweek"

Daryl

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2010, 06:58:39 PM »
Dennis, where do balls hit with the same sight picture?

Are you looking down the barrel sighting along the steel itself putting the bead of thin blade in the centre of the paper as if you were shooting a sighted gun and using the rear breech area as the sight, or is your eye raised slightly above the breech, seeing the entire barrel and the sight?

How high is the front sight?

Shooting pellets is a pointing affair, while shooting ball is an amining affair, when both are from the same gun.

The only way I know to correct a low shooting smoothbore and retain the low sighting used with ball (no change in sighting if they shoot the same) is to either lower the front sight if possible (8" is a lot) is to reduce the height of the front sight.  If that won't 'fix' the problem, then bending the barrel up, might be the only alternative.

This is how Taylor does it while at the range, any old Aspen will do - but take the barrel out of the stock before thumping the tree - good luck. A tree with thick. soft bark is best as you don't want to kink the barrel.  The other way is with sand bag supports for both ends and a lead hammer when done at home.  Depending on the steel of the barrel, you might obtain the necessary elevation using your foot and pushing down in the middle of the barrel, or may have to thump it a good one with the lead hammer or chunk of lead.  It's kind of scary, but works, as does a tree.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 12:29:12 AM »
Quote
Dennis, where do balls hit with the same sight picture?
Daryl, I didn't shoot any round balls, don't have any but I will get some and try them. I also didn't have any sights, just shot it like a shotgun.

I liked the cheekrest and believe I would like to keep it if I can. I am going to put sights on it and try it again later. Also next time I will use some #5 or #6 shot instead of the #8.

I found out that getting a fowler to shoot right will take more time and I believe I would be better off to go ahead and finish the gun then work on getting it to pattern right. I think like Daryl suggested I will get some roundballs and shoot that first then work on the shot loads.
Thanks
Dennis
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northmn

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2010, 02:36:50 PM »
trap shooter told me that he had a barrel on a modern gun.  He would remove the barrel put it on a couple of sawhorses and smack it a few times with a 25 pound bag of shot.  He claimed he had to do that about once a summer as it wanted to go back into the original configuration.  Lot of shotgun barrels get bent.  Most folks build a smoothbore to be comfortable for sights.  When you pull up a shotgun you can hit with, (one without a rib) you see a bit of barrel.  Look at the taper of a modern rib.

DP

Offline James Rogers

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2010, 03:16:08 PM »
Dennis,
Play around with the components for a while before doing anything to the barrel or stock.
Stock (eye adjustment) is for fine tuning and barrel bending/filing is for when the gun will not shoot to point of aim.
I have bent a few modern barrels Nothmn and from experience, they must be bent past the point of straight for them to remain where you want them. Scary process but it works. Not sure how much is needed on a barrel such as from 12L14.

The standard procedure is to get the barrel shooting to point of aim by playing with the components and/or tweaking the barrel and then adjust the stock to point of impact.

James

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 06:34:03 PM by James Rogers »

Daryl

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2010, 06:08:51 PM »
Another ploy might be to solder a block of steel across the top of the barrel breech which makes you look over it & gives the necessary elevation - at least till you get used to the angles of sighting and holding.

With most modern pelters, I don't even look at the front sight - only the end of the barrel (sort-of) in relation to the bird I'm shooting as I snap shoot or pass the bird and slap the trigger.  With a flinter, a steady lead is usually necessary due to lock time variation, so the block might be an idea.

 For testing this, a taped on piece of blackened card stock, adjustable with knife or sissors to get the proper elevation is a good idea before attaching anything semi-permanent.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 06:33:01 PM »
Another ploy might be to solder a block of steel across the top of the barrel breech which makes you look over it & gives the necessary elevation - at least till you get used to the angles of sighting and holding.


I believe that would encourage the bad habit of head lifting and peeking if there is no solid mount on the stock would it not? If the stock itself is built up properly though to allow a solid cheek to get the gun printing where you look, then wouldn't the angles of sighting and holding be set? This of course takes place after the barrel itself is shooting straight.

northmn

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 07:00:19 PM »
I definitely agree that it is a matter of stock fit, but when you go too low building back up is kind of hard.  Look at the gadgets trap shooters add to their stocks.  You are not going to add adjustable buttplates and cheekpieces to a fowler nor shims at the stock breech connection.  Sometimes shortening the stock will move the comb so that you have a little higher comb but that means refit of the buttplate.  Some have made minor improvements by building up a comb with clear fiberglass.  I made the same mistakes on my fiorst fowlers and built them like a rifle fit and they shot a little low.  As mentioned, if you look at originals, sometimes you see the front sight back two inches or more. That can help raise the barrel.  Is this a wing shooter, clay bird shooter or RB shooter?  For RB you can use the old trick of a high domed tang screw.  For pot shooting you hold a little high.  For shoting flying you got problems.

DP 

Offline James Rogers

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2010, 07:22:29 PM »
DP you are correct. It sure is easier leaving the extra wood and taking down to fit as needed. I believe you also like to take the gun in the white with a higher comb and fine fit by shooting?

Shortening the stock will always increase comb height on an inclining comb but can cause other problems. One can build up with a temporary means of moleskin, cardboard, etc to get the correct height measurement to then be able to apply something like this 18th century 16 bore Irish fowling piece by Lewis Alley.


Daryl

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2010, 07:38:19 PM »
Learning to shoot a fowler of normal dimensions is learning.  Building a stock like a modern gun is not PC for the gun being built. One merely has to learn to shoot the fowler with a heads-up attitude, not scrunched down into the comb and climbing the wrist like a modern trap shooter.  If field guns were meant to be cheeked like a modern trap gun, they would be built that way - they are not.
Trap guns are not field guns and field guns of the 19th and 18th century were meant to be shot with a heads-up attitude.

The steel block suggestion was meant as a learning tool - to get rid of the modern trap-shooters bad field form.  Try snapping a trap gun to your shoulder and hitting a bird in that one motion - it is almost impossible without breaking your cheek bone.

To build up the stock to fit like a modern gun is a mistake and an ugly one at that. Of course, that is my opinion only.

A lot of the old guns do have too much drop, demanding high, heads-up shooting, but it takes very little shooting to learn to hit with them.  Extra or too much drop seems to be an American style of the 19th century.  There are some designs that have quite straight stocks - perhaps ahead of their time - like modern field guns in comparrison to the typically American style.
Here's an example.  Yeah- it's British - imagine that? ;D
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:40:15 PM by Daryl »

roundball

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Re: s0 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2010, 07:50:07 PM »

If I put sights on it


Also, you may want to be aware of something when using rear sights on a smoothbore if you try to use it for wingshooting...after thousands of shots over the years aligning front sights with the notch in rear sights, its a habit that caused me problems the first time I took a .62cal "smooth rifle" to a trap range...by the time I "found & settled" the front sight in the rear sight notch, the birds were gone.

Using a tip from another poster, I simply stuck a piece of black electrical tape across the back of the rear sight so it covered the notch and was even across the top of the sight...then simply used it's sight picture as if it was a "rib"...then I was immediately able to start shooting it like my Remington trap gun and started breaking birds fine

Offline Feltwad

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2010, 08:57:36 PM »
The type of English gun mentioned by Northman  with a straight stock  and a high comb were for shooting live pigeon from traps .These came in all bore sizes from 4 to 12 and were mostly s/b  in percussion .The sxs did not become popular for pigeon shooting till the pinfire system it was then carried through to the hammerless period all these guns from all periods were built with high combs which when mounted to the shoulder  and on sighting the eye was only focused on the muzzle of the gun. I still own my grandfathers pigeon gun this is a breech loading hammer gun  which is so straight that it is like mounting a  broom shank to your shoulder.
Feltwad
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 10:36:01 PM by Feltwad »

northmn

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2010, 10:17:00 PM »
I do not remember the maker but the 14 gauge was a nice little SXS percussion gun with front action locks.  The owner could do very well shooting trap with it.  I believe he got mercenary and sold it (much like I would have done).  I also do no know how much early fowlers were used wing shooting.  I suspect a lot more game was taken while swimming than flying.

DP 

Offline James Rogers

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2010, 10:32:44 PM »
Learning to shoot a fowler of normal dimensions is learning.  Building a stock like a modern gun is not PC for the gun being built. One merely has to learn to shoot the fowler with a heads-up attitude, not scrunched down into the comb and climbing the wrist like a modern trap shooter.  If field guns were meant to be cheeked like a modern trap gun, they would be built that way - they are not.
Trap guns are not field guns and field guns of the 19th and 18th century were meant to be shot with a heads-up attitude.

The steel block suggestion was meant as a learning tool - to get rid of the modern trap-shooters bad field form.  Try snapping a trap gun to your shoulder and hitting a bird in that one motion - it is almost impossible without breaking your cheek bone.

To build up the stock to fit like a modern gun is a mistake and an ugly one at that. Of course, that is my opinion only.

A lot of the old guns do have too much drop, demanding high, heads-up shooting, but it takes very little shooting to learn to hit with them.  Extra or too much drop seems to be an American style of the 19th century.  There are some designs that have quite straight stocks - perhaps ahead of their time - like modern field guns in comparrison to the typically American style.


I don't shoot trap or skeet. Trap is a form of rifle shooting with a shotgun in my opinion and takes a different approach to a mount and stance than any other type of shooting.

Adapting oneself to a fowling gun with "normal dimensions" is really not a requirement to be PC in all cases and not always the best choice for some of us. ;D For someone like me, any off the shelf modern gun of average proportions has my cheekbone completely off the comb therefore I need to raise the comb by some means. For many others where a gun of normal dimensions is a somewhat closer fit, a certain pressure can be learned to be consistent. What I am getting at is the fact that just because one man has to scrunch down really hard on a stock another fellow may not have to on the same gun.

 "Head's up" on most standard stocks for me is not making ANY contact with the comb to see down the barrel or either looking INTO the thumbpiece or carving. So for me to "snap" up a gun that has a high comb and hit a bird in one motion probably won't smack those like me as it will others ;D As an example, I can shave just a little off the top of a standard Remington trap stock and have the perfect 50/50 field gun.

Although I do not know the exact stock drops on the stock I posted, I would bet there would be no scrunching and crawling if I were to mount that piece. For others, it might be quite high. The built up stock I have shown was done no later than the very early 19th century and possibly before. I have seen some 18th century references to that procedure.

Although I vary techniques, I mostly shoot a Stanbury or Lancaster style posture. A high comb and "heads up" style can go hand in hand.
A feature I see in muzzleloading shotgun shooting around me is that many shooters are keeping too much of their weight to the rear with their heads not just up but back on the stock as if aiming like modern muzzleloading rifle shooters. Of all the writings and paintings of the period I have studied this seems to be poor form even back then. A "Brewer" style of  live pigeon type shooting has that same erect body style but without the head so far back. This is essentially a TRAP shooting style hence the rifle similarities but is not a suitable game gun stance.

Erect posture, head up BUT nose over toes style is my preference and is seen even in very early paintings.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 10:40:59 PM by James Rogers »

Offline James Rogers

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2010, 10:43:53 PM »
 I also do no know how much early fowlers were used wing shooting.  I suspect a lot more game was taken while swimming than flying.

DP  

In America, unless you were of some "substance" and emulating those across the pond of like mind, you were filling the pot by the easiest means.  ;D
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 01:37:50 AM by James Rogers »

northmn

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2010, 02:07:06 AM »
Folks have talked also about loading similar to what our forefathers did. About anything could be stuffed down th ebore for over powder wading and in some cases maybe was.  I question whether cards were used a lot as I do not know the availability of paper in the pre-Rev times.  Also shot was far from round and very soft.  We do not have the old drop shot readily available that was used before the turn of the century.  Whatever the case, when using a fowler with the shot of the times with no choke, they had to be pretty close to whatever they were shooting at.  The patterns must have been quite wide.  Where they shot might not have been as critical when they could cover a door at 25 paces.

DP

Online bob in the woods

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2010, 02:36:47 AM »
As I mentioned before, I now always finish the stock after shooting it , so I can adjust the fit...or, bend the barrel. Bending them used to scare me, but not any more. There's a tree outside the shop door that works wonderfully.  Another option that I forgot to mention before is- bend the stock.   I remember that Taylor had a pictorial demo of him adjusting the stock on a fowler using hot oil. Perhaps he could chime in? ;D

northmn

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2010, 04:17:56 PM »
There are a few methods of bending wood.  I just took the cast off, which for me was a cast on out of a Remington Spartan O/U 16 ga.  I used a 250 watt heat lamp, boiled linseed oils and clamps.  I heated at the inside of the bend so that expansion would take out the bend and rubbed in plenty of oil.  The wood has to be too hot to touch when you do this.  Another trick is steaming.  However, this type of bending is likely better for cast off than for changing the drop as you may or may not get a rather unsusual wrist area profile.  I guess one could try it.

DP

Daryl

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Re: 20 ga fowler shooting low
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2010, 05:11:04 PM »
Feltwad- nice guns- the pistol gipped one and next gun appear to be 8 bores, then a 10 and a 12?