powder magazine

[yip]

   whats the best way to make a black powdern magazine? i want the store about 8 lbs of black powder and want to do it right.

[Roger Fisher]

Inside or out??

Assuming outside, suggest you get a garbage can Plastic, and a smaller (say a 5 gal painter bucket w/snap on lid.  Bury the large can right side up putting the 5 gal can inside of it upside down with your 8 lb inside.  Cover with at least 8 or so in of heavy ground. A couple or three flagstones over the can under the dirt cover couldn't hurt.   Camo it and do it where the neighborhood rug rats can't get at it...a ground cellar would be good.....!

[roundball]

   whats the best way to make a black powdern magazine? i want the store about 8 lbs of black powder and want to do it right.

The heavy duty cardboard shipping box that Goex uses.
I've always figured if a Goex cardboard shipping carton is good enough to ship 25 one pound cans of BP across the country, being thrown on and off trucks and loading docks for 3-4 days, its good enough to keep them stored in when the case gets here...I just set mine on the floor of an out of the way closet that gets no use or traffic from anybody else but me...10+ years so far so good.

[The other DWS]

Really interesting and thought provoking question.

you might try checking with a local gunshop and very quietly find out how they are storing their powder --- if they carry BP any more.

there may be state and/or local building and /or fire regulations---if you want to kick that dog.  And powder storage may or may not affect your home owners insurance--if they know you store it your rates may go up, but if you have a loss and you don't tell them they might try to avoid payment.

there may be some kind of quantity threshold, below that is ok above that and regs kick in.

where I live there are supposedly some sort of village regulations but no one knows how they are interpreted---and nobody wants to be the first to ask.

I asked my brother who is a local (not my town) fire chief and its a topic of concern to fire departments, but so are gas cans for lawn mowers, snow mobiles, jet skis and ATVs.  He didn't have a solid answer.  He said he'd prefer me to keep it in small 1# containers and not have them all in one single place.  He did think it'd be smarter to keep it away from the main residential part of the house

I know a few guys who keep it in old safes stored outside in small locked sheds with no electricity etc connection

[roundball]

Some additional info:

ATF regs OK's storage of up to 50lbs BP for recreational use without any paperwork, permits, or storage requirements;

Each state's Fire Marshall's office is then the place to call to find out if a particular state has issued any state ammednments to the ATF regs;

[yip]

 i been using 50 cal ammo can. the thing is water tite and can be locked for safety. it seems a lot better than storing on a .shelf

[davec2]

Yip,

Ammo cans.... perfect.  That's what they were made for - small arms ammo, hand grenades, mortar shells, rockets, flares, etc., etc.  Get the big 20mm cans if you have a lot of powder to store.  And roundball is correct - by Fed rules, you can store up to 50 pounds without any bureaucratic hoop jumping.  As far as the locals go, it is always easier to get forgiveness than permission......translation....don't ask, don't tell !

[Daryl]

The trouble with ammo cans that lock up tight, is in a fire, they become bombs and can kill or injure firefighters.  Any container that has powder in it, should have a relief valve, ie: eassily blown off lid to the pressure can disipate easily.  I have two containers, one for BP and one for smokeless.  I use a bit ammo can for the BP, with the lid just sitting on it - but locked in the gun storage lockup.  I have another steel can with hinged lid for the smokeless powder, also in the gun storage lockup.

[R. Nance]

A few years ago, one of the mags. ran a article on  making a powder bunker out of plywood and drywall. The best I can remember it was a plywood box with drywall glued inside to block the heat. I believe the plywood and drywall were both 1/2 inch. Don't hold me to this as it was a while ago. But it is a place to start. Maybe someone will remember the article or have the info.

[BrownBear]

This is a useful discussion for me.  I've considered the powder magazines sold by Dixie, but the price sure put me off.

[490roundball]

one of the other boards got a bulk buy deal on these at one point

http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/catalog_safe.php

[William Worth]

Pre-cast concrete structures like utilities use for control or valve vaults come in all sizes and aren't that expensive.  

My big quest is how best to achieve passive environmental controls (humidity control) through proper construction.  There is an excellent paper on this addressing that very issue related to construction of archives by Tim Padfield:

www.conservationphysics.org/ppubs/getty_tenerife_tp2007.pdf

In a nut shell, what he says is the structure needs to be massive, at least two feet thick, have proper ventilation and have a slightly moisture absorbent interior that acts as sort of a humidity flywheel.

Ammo cans aren't good bombs.  Being rectangular weakens them and allows the release of pressure.  They are designed to fail.

Anything worth doing is worth doing right, many people could justify construction of a root cellar or storm shelter.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

A shelf in a closet that is climate controlled with the rest of the house, away from any source of heat or spark seems safest to me, as I don't have the wherewithall to build a 1950's bombshelter in the back yard........ Don't want no ammo can bombs.

[Daryl]

W. North - quote "Ammo cans aren't good bombs.  Being rectangular weakens them and allows the release of pressure.  They are designed to faiL".

Good to know. Does this include the heavy ordinance cans?   I figured with the metal construction and clamp-down lids, BP would turn one into a bomb.

The heavy plastic bag that BP comes in, inside the heavy cardboard box might be a good place to store loose powder.

[William Worth]

I don't know about ALL ammo cans, surely we have someone here who could more authoritatively address that one, but I would think all ammo cans are constructed so as  to prevent an enemy from from storing their ordnance in your magazine.

To illustrate how weak the shape can make something, in the rectangular aluminum wing tanks in an airplane, if you put so much as 2-3 psi pressure in them, they make awful noises and bulge menacingly.    Wouldn't take much more to rupture them.  The initial release of pressure wouldn't amount to much blast wise, the secondary's would be another issue.  


Oh come on Dr Tim, every kid wants a fort,...er...I mean bomb shelter.

[SCLoyalist]

Well, Yip, if by doing it right you mean by BATF standards,  take a look at:

 http://www.labsafety.com/refinfo/printpage.htm?page=/refinfo/ezfacts/ezf326.htm

Black powder is classified by ATF & OSHA as  a Class A explosive, and for 50 lbs or less, you need a Class II magazine.  The site summarizes ATF/OSHA's requirements for such.

For several years, I kept 25+ lbs of powder inside the house (with the warning to my wife that in case of fire, don't dawdle leaving the house and getting outside to safety).  About 6 months ago, I moved it to an outside storage shed on the corner of the lot.  Inside the shed, it's boxed in an old ice chest.  Since the chance of fire in an 8X10 shed that doesn't have electricity run to it is low, and there isn't anything much to burn out there that would raise the powder to its 600 degree ignition temp, and even if it does go, it's a fair distance from occupied dwellings, I figure it's pretty safe.  Another plus is that in case of house fire, my wife can now dawdle leaving the house and getting outside to safety if she's so minded.
 
SCL

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Very good topic.

I think it might be easier to discuss what NOT to store bp in rather than how to fashion a proper magazine.

You don't want a wet location, at the same time you don't want it so water-tight that it can become a bomb. 

Someone mentioned safes - that gave me the willies.  I don't think storing it in one of those fireproof safes would be a good idea.  While it might keep the powder dry if the house is ever taken up in a fire and the inside of that safe gets up to ignition temp - KABLOOEY!

I store mine in a 20mm ammo can in the basement.  I used to keep it in the garage because I had a few pounds of Swiss clump up on me.  Thought maybe the wild temperature swings weren't good for it.  Maybe I'll put it back in the garage.

[William Worth]

My thinking regarding keeping relatively small amounts of powder in a gun safe with a good fire rating is that if the powder can be kept from igniting in the first place, then you don't have a bomb.  Paper documents fairly commonly survive house fires in safes.  Proper placement of the safe has a lot to do with that.  A safe in a poured concrete basement, up against a poured concrete wall is least vulnerable to heat rise.  

A foam release system for the safe might be nice.

[roundball]

Black powder is classified by ATF & OSHA as  a Class A explosive, and for 50 lbs or less, you need a Class II magazine.  The site summarizes ATF/OSHA's requirements for such.

There is no ATF magazine requirement for a storage facility to house up to 50lb BP for recreational purposes...BP for recreational use is exempted from any such requirements...even the so called 'Patriot Act' did not muscle in on that.

[Kermit]

So, 600 degrees (F. or C.?) for BP to cook off? And the book title tells us that paper ignites at "Fahrenheit 451?" Does that tell us that a safe designed to preserve paper documents in a fire would do at least the same for BP? What's the TIME rating for that? Inquiring minds...

[roundball]

The relatively cheap GI hinged lid ammo cans are designed with a rubber seal around the lids, and then the sides of the lids are simply 'flanges' bent over at 90 degrees which do not "lock" with anything...they are designed so that internal pressure will simply bends the flanges back outward to vent pressue.

[SCLoyalist]

So, 600 degrees (F. or C.?) for BP to cook off?

600 degrees was wrong...According to the Mat'l Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Goex Black Powder, the stuff's autoignition temp is 867 DegF, and its "Explosive Temp (5 Sec)" is 801DegF. 

[The other DWS]

Ref: old safes.  they were kept closed, but NOT with the bolts thrown.  the two I've seen had a simple padlock hasp welded to the door with an inexpensive padlock in it to keep the kids out, not enough to contain an explosion---they were purely for security.

Ref:  gun safes-- as an ex-volunteer fire fighters; I've got horror stories to tell about guns safes and basements. Wwhen you are putting out a house fire you use as much water as is needed.  invariably basements turn into really really NASTY indoor swimming holes.  with all sorts of chemicals and contaminants in the "water".  NOT a good place for a gun "safe" full of expensive toys.

worst one I heard about locally was a big gun-safe with beaucoup thousands of $$$$ worth of high end engraved drillings and multibarrel combo guns--mostly German WW II marked stuff.  it had been stored on the ground floor, but with the fire it crashed into the basement and flooded.  it was burglar-proof, fire-proof, and even had climate controls, but when submerged, the water got in, (through the elec connection I suppose).  even though the guns were retrieved  (took a wrecker to get the water-filled safe out of the basement) it was a week or more because the owner was in FL for the winter and there was  BIG restoration and repair bill---with much insurance complications.

[yip]

 well thanks fellas; i guess, from what i have read here theres is no real safe way to do it. i guess the ammo can that i keep in my basement is as good as it can be. i told my wife if there is a fire, to grap the ammo can and scram. i think its better then trying to gather up the lose cans and go. what yuns think?

[The other DWS]

Just make sure her life insurance is paid current