American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

The site below gives American Black Walnut glowing reports:
http://www.craftsman-style.info/finishing/070-walnut.htm

What are your opinions as gunbuilders?

What do you find to be the most satisfying finishing methods??

What are the best sources for American Black Walnut gun blanks/planks?

[rich pierce]

The average blank of American black walnut is a good wood for plainer guns without much carving.  It sure is fun and fast to shape compared to hard maple.  Quite often one can get blanks that are figured in the buttstock as they were taken from the base of the tree and compression makes the wood dense and often highly figured.  In the same blank, the wood at the muzzle may be very plain and appreciably less dense.  Filling the grain on a walnut stock is a chore if done with many layers of a thin finish such as Chambers or Permalyn, or Tru-oil.  I'll be looking for a grain filler when I finally finish my current project which is stocked in black walnut.

[Mike Brooks]

All Black walnut is not created equal. Some is very good and some is very bad. I shop for walnut by weight. heavy are keepers and light stays with the seller.

[smart dog]

Hi Tim,
Black walnut is a fine wood for gunstocks.  It can have wonderful figure and mutliple shimmering colors.  Even striaight grain blanks (as in many rifles and muskets from Springfield or Harper's Ferry) are beautiful.  However, I prefer European or English walnut for stocks (when appropriate) because they generally are harder, less likely to chip or tear when worked, and finish much more quickly.  Both English and black walnut have a specific gravity of about 0.5 but the former has a hardness of 1200 foot-pounds versus 1000 for black walnut. Black walnut is more porous and takes longer to fill the grain than maple or English walnut.  Often gunmakers use a filler before staining or finishing.  I don't, but as a result I end up using almost double the number of coats compared to maple or EW to get a satin gloss.  Some makers fill the pores with a black colored filler to accentuate the grain and then finish the wood. That gives it an older used look.  I also do not like the color of many BW blanks.  They frequently have a purplish hue that I dislike.  In those cases, I always lightly stain or dye the wood to warm the color up.   All in all, BW is a fine wood and is the only wood appropriate for some guns (U.S. military guns).  Dunlap hardwoods in the east and Gobi woods in the west are good suppliers.  Gobi also sells Oregon grown BW, which  sometimes seems a little harder than black walnut grown in other places.  I would not buy BW sight unseen, however. I prefer to at least see a lot of photos of a blank before purchasing or better, hand select it on site to avoid getting soft or poorly colored wood.

dave

[P.W.Berkuta]

Well Doc - this is my two cents on the article - I think the writer is off base on his "glowing" report on American Black Walnut, on average 75% of the American Black Walnut I have used since 1966 has been of modest density and generally plain in figure -- OK to work with but nothing to "write home about". I have purchased my walnut from local lumber mills in NJ and also from a friends farm out side of Allentown, PA from which he planked up and air dried 4 planks 144" X 18" X 2-3/4" for me. Most of this wood would not hold detailed carving, and would require careful finishing techniques to get a nice smooth finish. This wood would be good for a plain to average rifle. Now I do have some honest to goodness DENSE, HARD, HEAVY, HIGHLY FIGURED American Black Walnut that I am saving for some top end modern O/U shotguns that are worth about $500.00 in the rough block - they will knock your socks off and make you drool!! The better woods will cost you dearly - you get what you pay for -- what more can I say !

[Greg S Day]

Dr. Tim

I've been reading some of the recent discussions about Am. Walnut with some interest.

I've been working on a fowler for the last few weeks.  The wood is a nice piece of Pennsylvania Black Walnut.

I'm not sure if I did it right, but here's what I did.  The wood was pretty blonde so I stained with LMF american walnut.  Then I applied 2 coats of tung oil without sanding in between.  I just wanted to build up a layer.  next I applied black artist oil paint as a filler.  It is linseed based.  I wiped it off before it set up.  Let it dry over night and hit the stock with steel wool.  I wanted to cut through any paint left on the stock.  Then I began applying layers of tung oil again with a steel wool wipe between coats.

I didn't think the grain filled well after the first paint app.  so I did it again at around layer 8 or so.  I then finished up with 4 more coats of oil.

The grain is not completely filled but it certainly closed up some.

I've attached one photo.  Have to send another under sep. cover.

Feel free to make comments guys.  I'm keeping this one for my turkey gun.  It's a 16 bore Colerain, 44" with a jug choke..  Chambers round faced english lock.


Greg

[Greg S Day]

One more shot.

Greg

[Rootsy]

One of the quickest ways to fill BW grain without specific grain fillers is to put on as much oil (tru-oil, permalyn, etc, etc) as it'll absorb and leave it heavy without wiping off and let it cure.  Then wet sand it with fresh oil as the lubricant.  Keep it wet and the saw dust will form a slurry with the oil.  Some say to wipe against the grain at this point to fill it.  I leave it as a slurry on surface and let it cure.  I continue to do this until the grain is fully filled and progress to finer grits of sand paper.  I wipe the last coat off and let it cure.  Then I finish with 0000 steel wool (wet) to give ti a smooth satin finish.  Wipe that off and then use a bit of rottenstone or stock sheen and conditioner as a final surface finisher after a good week long cure or so after the final pass with the steel wool. 

I generally end up with at least a half a dozen wet sanding cycles.  Can take me as long as 3 weeks to a month or more to finish a stock.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Rootsy, do you lose curl or the figure in the wood with the slurry?  seems like the finish would be less transparent after that??

Greg, she is real purty!!

[Rootsy]

I've never been into highly figured walnut.  Some of what I have done in the past has been semi-figured and the slurry just fills the pores of the wood and once it is all said and done you don't end up with a layer of finish on top of the wood.  The finish is in the wood and the wood / finish matrix is on the surface. 

[keweenaw]

Tim,

A sanded in fill won't impact the effect of figure or grain.  There really shouldn't be any slurry on the surface and it takes many rounds of sanding to get it filled.  The very best finish I've used for a sanded in fill is Varathane Natural Oil finish which is mostly Tung oil with some other stuff added.  It's also hard to find.  If your last dry sanding was with 320 start with 320 and the wet finish on a reasonably sized area.  As the finish starts to tack, wipe it off.  Maybe a couple more rounds of sanding with the 320 before you go to 400 for a couple rounds. This works well with a hard piece of walnut with fairly small pore size but would be hard to do nicely on a softer piece. BUT!!! I would only do this if my desire was to have a close to the wood finish - basically looking like there is almost no finish on the surface of the wood. 

If you want the piece to look like it has finish on the surface, use a wood filler.

Tom

[g.pennell]

Dr. Tim,

Though I haven't used this technique on a longrifle or fowler stock, I HAVE finished a couple dozens of "modern" black walnut stocks (19th century cartridge rifles).  Here's what works for me:

I sand the stock thoroughly to 400 grit, and whisker at least twice (more if it needs it) then burnish with a fine grey Scotchbrite pad.  I seal the stock, including all the inletting and underneath the buttplate with 2 or 3 brushed on coats of Pro-Custom Oil Finish (Brownells) thinned about 50% with mineral spirits.  I want this to penetrate as deeply as possible.  Depending on climate (I want this to dry completely) I let it dry for 2-3 days.

Next, I use the same finish full strength, and rub on a couple of coats, a few hours apart...I let the finish set to the point that it isn't tacky between coats.  This is allowed  to dry overnight, then wet sanded starting with 400 grt, using the finish as a cutting oil.  As I sand a section, I wipe the slurry off cross grain, with a clean paper towel, trying to leave as much in the pores as possible.  The stock is then set aside to dry overnight, and the process repeated with finer grits.

It usually takes me a couple of wet-sandings at 400, and a couple at 600 to fill all the pores.  Then a couple of very thin coats are hand rubbed in to finish things off.  A rub-out with a very fine Scotchbrite (mine happen to be white), and a coat of Johnson's Paste Wax and it's ready to go.  

This is a very durable finish...one of the "oil modified urethanes" or some such...similar I think to Permalyn, but I prefer the Pro-Custom because at the normal humidity levels here in east Kentucky, it gives me just a bit more working time than the Permalyn, and seems to be a tad thicker product, which helps in the grain filling process.

Greg

[northmn]

Balck Walnut and linseed oil seem to go together.  I hope so anyway as I am in the process of working with two walnut blanks at this time.  One I should have bought in English walnut but was too cheap.  Generally, I like walnut because I do not stain it if the color is good.  That way if any repairs or add on's are needed I can go back in and do and merely refinish.  Down side is tht the one stock I am working with is touchy about splintering around inlays.  Both are softer feel than maple.

DP

[The other DWS]

guys I've seen a few of Greg's "modern" rifles at ASSRA events, and whether its the finishing products, the technique, or the finisher,  (most likely all three)  its downright magical.

[wmrike]

As much as anything, I make stocks for shotguns (moderns stuff) and handle both black and english/french.  Regardless of the type, my method of finish is similar to Rootsy's, but I use one of Pilkington's tinted linseeds.  I like the warmer color they generate.  After whiskering, I start the oil-and-sand routine with 320 grit and work down to 600, the last repeated maybe three times.  Depending on the look I want, I may finish the whole thing by rubbing or spraying a top coat of Pilkingtons, Permalyn, tung or teak, or even poly.

Part of it is knowing the look you want to achieve.  As I stated above, I like the warm, darker colors black walnut can produce.  Too, for no real reason I prefer the pores to be entirely filled.  It's just where I like to end up.

[The other DWS]

 a few questions here:
   How do you think modern 2nd or 3rd growth AM B/walnut compares to the old growth wood used on original guns?
   Are the original finishes as filled and smooth as what we are attracted to today?
   What would original finishes been made of?  some sort of oil and wax? 

[Dave K]

I have thought of using the slurry way of filling as well. But, my stock is carved and if I used a slurry, I would be afraid it would no go well with the carving at all. I went ahead and I am using a sealer/filler. One coat just went on the stock and I am pleased with what I see. I can also see there will be another coat to go as well.....tomorrow. I have used the slurry method on modern guns that only had checkering. I avoided the checkering and was very pleased with the results. But, there is just too much carving here to stay away.

[rich pierce]

a few questions here:
   How do you think modern 2nd or 3rd growth AM B/walnut compares to the old growth wood used on original guns?
   Are the original finishes as filled and smooth as what we are attracted to today?
   What would original finishes been made of?  some sort of oil and wax? 

I don't think there is much scientific evidence of "virgin timber" or "slow growth wood" being superior in any way, except being larger and having more "clear wood" (knot free).  In bowmaking, slow growth wood is inferior in many ways and the best wood is faster growth.  There is a romantic notion that wood grown under harsh conditions has become "hardened" by the conditions.

[Acer Saccharum]

One of the quickest ways to fill BW grain without specific grain fillers is to put on as much oil (tru-oil, permalyn, etc, etc) as it'll absorb and leave it heavy without wiping off and let it cure.  Then wet sand it with fresh oil as the lubricant.  Keep it wet and the saw dust will form a slurry with the oil.  Some say to wipe against the grain at this point to fill it.  I leave it as a slurry on surface and let it cure.  I continue to do this until the grain is fully filled and progress to finer grits of sand paper.  I wipe the last coat off and let it cure.  Then I finish with 0000 steel wool (wet) to give ti a smooth satin finish.  Wipe that off and then use a bit of rottenstone or stock sheen and conditioner as a final surface finisher after a good week long cure or so after the final pass with the steel wool. 

I generally end up with at least a half a dozen wet sanding cycles.  Can take me as long as 3 weeks to a month or more to finish a stock.

I have finished several stocks much in the same way as Rootsy. This method leaves the pores filled and very little oil on the surface of the wood. Make for a lovely finish. I use wet/dry paper with thinned Tru Oil or thinned Linspeed. Steel wool can leave bits of steel in the finish.

All walnut is not equal. some is quite soft and porous. Other pieces  are hard, heavy, dense, (as in Mike Brooks post). Shop around. Pick wood out in person. Go to Dixon's.

[stoneke]

Let me add my support to G. Pennell's comments on the Pro Custom finish produced by Chem-Pak. This is the most user friendly material and durable finish that I have found. Easy to work with, and depending on the application rubbing, you can produce a fine satin to a glossy final finish.

[California Kid]

Tim, did you figure out what you are going to do yet, or are you more confused? Lots of input here! HA HA!

[smart dog]

Rich,
Old growth trees are by default beyond the point at which annual growth has slowed down so much that individual growth rings are very close, often >100 rings per inch.  As a result the wood is usually very strong for its species.  It makes better lumber and would make better gunstocks.  It was for good reason that airplanes were often constructed of old-growth Sitka spruce.  It is no myth or romantic notion and is supported by reams of wood testing data from organizations such as the Forest Service.  The real question has nothing to do with "old growth".  It has to do with the fact that there was no guarantee that  trees cut for gunstocks in the "old" days were virgin timber.  Many probably came from farms or plantations that had been cut over at least once and planted with valuable trees. 

dave   

[The other DWS]

I would imagine that most of the pre-1800 american long guns were originally stocked with "old-growth" / virgin wood.  Even at that time, while much of the seaboard areas had been cleared and were settled and under cultivation.  however uncleared land was still within economic reach and there was plenty of unfarmable land left uncut.  After 1800 you might be getting some 2nd growth in a few areas particularly in agriculturally burned out soils of the tobacco regions.  (the CW era region known as "the wilderness" was such an area and I'm relatively certain there were others) I don't know when deliberate reforestation of gun lumber-type trees began.  At one point I had access to an incredibly well researched history of american forests and the lumber industry--I'll try to track it down for reference.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Tim, did you figure out what you are going to do yet, or are you more confused? Lots of input here! HA HA!

Well, I have been experimenting on scraps from this blank.  So far what I have learned relative to this stick of Black Walnut:

Sealing/filling with 1# cut of dewaxed garnet shellac takes several coats, but shellac is easy to sand back.  I like the way the shellac seems to highlight the curl a little more, when topped over with several slurried coats of Chambers finish,  than just using the Chambers by itself. I still have a few coats to go on both sticks and then I will take pictures to show if there really is any difference.

I like the deep finish-on look for this gun, cause it is I think more they way 1750 English guns were finished -- based on the pictures I have seen. Please tell me if you have seen different on real guns you have, or have handled.

At the same time the stick that has the wetsanded Chambers oil varnish only IN the wood is remarkably beautiful....

Too many good options...not enough time, not enough wood..... to test all right now, but I will definitely save this thread and refer to it. I want to try Greg's approach as well as most of the others. All seem like good approaches depending on the result intended.

I found it interesting on the furniture makers sites that many of them use traditional  methods of finishing BW by using two or three coats of BLO topped by Shellac!!  That sure wouldn't hold up in the woods......  They do someties use French polishing as well.

Interesting that ABW is/was selected for airplane propellers!!!

What are some other great artistic secrets out there re how to create a great finish on an American Black Walnut traditional gun?  This thread has the potential of being a nice reference for folks doing their first one like me, or builders who would like to try something different.

Thanks for all the sharing!!

[rich pierce]

Rich,
Old growth trees are by default beyond the point at which annual growth has slowed down so much that individual growth rings are very close, often >100 rings per inch.  As a result the wood is usually very strong for its species.  It makes better lumber and would make better gunstocks.  It was for good reason that airplanes were often constructed of old-growth Sitka spruce.  It is no myth or romantic notion and is supported by reams of wood testing data from organizations such as the Forest Service.  The real question has nothing to do with "old growth".  It has to do with the fact that there was no guarantee that  trees cut for gunstocks in the "old" days were virgin timber.  Many probably came from farms or plantations that had been cut over at least once and planted with valuable trees. 

dave   

Would love to see that data.  Such slow growth wood is brittle and weak and rejected for bows.  The probable explanation is that the required properties for gunstocks and bows are very different.