Author Topic: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing  (Read 18535 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2010, 08:31:18 PM »
I can't speak for walnut, but my prefernce for maple is that with as small of growth rings as I can find.  There are of course a slew of other things I'm lookin for as well, but in my limited experience I've found the best pieces of wood I've used have been quite slow growing.  They have been in general of higher density than faster growing wood and carve much better.  Sure, you will sometimes find wood with fairly large growth rings that is hard and works well, but I believe in general slower growth yields harder wood which seems to work cleaner and can be carved with finer detail.

Offline Stophel

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 09:01:23 PM »
I really like walnut...but I need to pick out the blank in person.  It varies widely in quality.

The only exception to that is when I order a big chunk of wood from Groff and Groff lumber in PA.  I have twice had them send me a 3" thick hunk of walnut wood (which, depending upon width, can make 3 or 4 blanks), and have gotten really good quality wood.  Not fancy, but good quality, which is more important to me.

I agree with whoever said that walnut and linseed oil just go together.   ;)
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Offline Captchee

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2010, 06:00:34 AM »
 One  thing that has not been brought up yet is . It  depends on what type of finish your going for .
 The slick smooth American finish or the more open pour European finish .
 Today , its all pretty much the same   no  real separations. We all have moved to the smooth filled look .

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2010, 06:33:24 AM »
Rich, I've been involved in traditional archery most of my life and number  a bunch of custom bowyers among my small circle of friends.  I can assure you with some certainty that wood qualities required for unbacked wood bows and for gunstocks are quite different.  Bows are wooden springs requiring flexibility and the ability to return to original state with speed and little or no permanent deformation.  rifle stocks require stability, impact loading for recoil (column strength) as well as workability.  then there are the economic factors.

One problem with linseed oil and other "long-oils" in gunstocks, though it is very traditional (at least since the Civil war or so), is that it dries chemically VERY slowly and will continue to slowly penetrate the wood for years requiring periodic refreshing on the surface.  There was an old adage about this that I don't recall quite correctly, something on the order of "once an hour for a day, once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, once a year for a life" or something like that.

In addition as it slowly dries/oxidizes it will actually contribute to the chemical breakdown of the wood's cellular fiber structure----this may not be an issue with our typical rifles.  But on old museum specimens of military arms, where it was a common cheap way to finish issue stocks, one can see deterioration in the back of the action and recoil absorbing areas.  However it was a cheap and rapid way to get arms to the men who needed them and having a rifle last a hundred years was the least of their concerns.
One way to avoid this is to use a deep penetrating but fast setting sealer prior to the linseed application.  If memory serves me correctly a heavily thinned shellac was frequently used in this way.  the modified linseed oils, lin-speed and others were designed to "set-up" faster before the penetrated too deeply--probably more for production reasons than for preservation purposes.

Offline pathfinder

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2010, 04:02:35 PM »
Being a furniture re-finisher by trade, I use the paste wood filler formulated for open pore woods. my sequence after wiskering: spirit base stain,two coats permalyn sealer, scuff with purple scotch bright pad, paste filler against the grain,very light sanding with scotch bright,then a couple of coats of True-oil. Gun I built 20 years ago and use heavily still looks pretty good.
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2010, 04:16:37 PM »
I know from nothing but from all I read here and elsewhere, as well as my own experience, I think the 1# cut of dewaxed shellac was a trditional way of sealing at least some original guns where it was available. It also works well on two guns I have used it on and I will use it on the one I am building now. The samples are not finished but the way it highlights the curl a little more than just using the varnish alone is looking like a deciding factor for me.

Shellac slows the change of humidity in and out of the wood..... a good thing on longrifles. It is not waterproof, the Oil varnish provides that.....although the oil varnish is not as effective at slowing/reducung the humidity exchange.

Eric Kettenburg can undoubtedly tell us much more about the traditional use of shellac...and other finishes. He has made quite a study of them. http://web.mac.com/kettenburgs/Site/Home.html
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2010, 04:18:35 PM »
Being a furniture re-finisher by trade, I use the paste wood filler formulated for open pore woods. my sequence after wiskering: spirit base stain,two coats permalyn sealer, scuff with purple scotch bright pad, paste filler against the grain,very light sanding with scotch bright,then a couple of coats of True-oil. Gun I built 20 years ago and use heavily still looks pretty good.

Do you use black filler or clear or some color to match the wood??
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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2010, 07:29:32 PM »
A fast way to fill walnut with varnish (oil ) is to apply a heavy first coat. let it dry. Apply a second heavy coat, let it get tacky. Using paper, rub the finish across the grain. Keep rubbing till you have one big nasty mess, stop and let it dry then steel wool it all off. I use old brown paper towel paper to do the rubbing. That method is old as the hills. Sounds terrible but works and no it doesnt do anything to the molecular structure of the wood or any of that other technical stuff I dont understand.

               Joe.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2010, 10:37:46 AM »
Wet sanding is an incredible was of time.
Yeah, I have done a lot of it 100 stocks or more. But not anymore.
Its especially nice if using a varnish with solvents ::)

Dan
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2010, 03:16:05 PM »
So Dan, how do you finish Black Walnut?
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2010, 07:07:05 PM »
So Dan, how do you finish Black Walnut?
There are others but this is what I found quick.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6833.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3233.0

The problem most people fall into so far as finishing a long rifle is they insist on using synthetic finishes. Most people then end up with a stock that  looks like its finished with synthetics.

Dan
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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2010, 10:12:41 PM »
I just read a good post about staining walnut on the Doublegunshop.com by a well known gun maker.  If you go there it is under the forum heading and has Solarlux in the title of the thread.  I tried to copy a link but couldn't for some reason.  I have seen this maker's work and it is excellent. 

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 10:40:49 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Captchee

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2010, 11:19:18 PM »
Yep Jerry , not only does steve know what he is talking about , But if you use his process you can near match  even  an old,  aged, existing  finish . recently I found myself  building from scratch a complete forearm , Hardware  and all   , for a  pre war German SXS .
Steve’s knowledge was  beyond valuable .
 Not only did he help provide me with photos of  the original hardware  but also  the info on how the finish was done . I was able to match the existing finish on the butt stock very closely . And I didn’t use varnish or lacquers to do it .
 As I said before  . The finish you  use , should be dictated by the original type of finish . Early European finishes are known for  being rather dull and open poured . Today  people lean to more the filled smooth type of finish .
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 11:36:33 PM by Captchee »

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2010, 01:04:58 AM »
thanks a bunch for posting that link,  good info there.

Offline fm tim

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2010, 05:26:13 PM »
Steven Hughes has an interesting method of filling walnut grain.
He mixes rottenstone with Permalyn sealer to the consistency of toothpaste cream and rubs it on with a circular motion using a piece of soft cloth..
When dry, he wetsands it back to wood.  Then it has an ugly grey color.
Does it again if grain is still apparent
One last coat of just Permalyn sealer, by hand, to finish.
See his book "Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing" from Shooting Sportsman Press

Obviously issues with filling carving so be careful.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2010, 05:53:14 PM »
I wonder how rotten stone in shellac would work as a filler used in the same way???
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: American Black Walnut - Gunbuilder's opinions and methods of finishing
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2010, 06:31:12 PM »
I wonder how rotten stone in shellac would work as a filler used in the same way???

Just remember that abrasives are hard on checkering tools should the firearm require checkering.
I would rather (and have in the past) use walnut dust. But find no advantage in doing so.
Dan
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