Hardening a Frizzen

[Benedict]

I have an old original lock that does not spark.  I have tried rehardening the frizzen but that did not help.  I was thinking of trying Kasenit to harden it but a recent thread indicated that Kasenit gives a very thin case so that probably won't work.  The frizzen appears to have been half soled at some point in its career so I was surprised that rehardening it did not work.  I will probably try rehardening again to see if that helps.  If that does not work, does anyone have any other suggestions.

thanks a lot.

Bruce

[Woodstock]

Can it be re-soled? From what I understand on how that is done, it was probably soldered on. With it being an original check it closely. Kasenit will work but will not last long depending on how much you shoot and the material it was soled with. I am sure someone here will come up with a solution that will work.

[rich pierce]

Have you checked to see how hard it is?  The "new file edge on the edge of the frizzen" test?

[JTR]

If that does not work, does anyone have any other suggestions.

Yeah, Sell it to me!

John

[Stan]

If it has been half soled by either soldering or brazing/silver soldering when you get the frizzen hot enough to harden properly the sole will probably come off. If it is riveted on then no problem.
Kasenite will do a very good job of carberizing for lite use.

[44-henry]

I'll be doing some pack hardening in my class in the next few weeks, if you like I can send it in the pack with the resto of the items.

Alex Johnson

[Benedict]

44-henry - Thanks for the offer to pack harden my frizzen.  I do appreciate it but I have been treating this lock refurbish project as a learning opportunity.  This part of the job is just one more of those opportunities. 

All - Thanks for the suggestions and ideas.  Right now my plan is to try to reharden the frizzen first.  If that does not work I may try to pack harden it or to half sole it.

Thanks,
Bruce

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Benedict...describe how you have tried to harden the frizzen, please.  Then we may be able to give you some direction that will make sense, and work for you.

[Benedict]

The frizzen was heated with an acetylene torch until it was no longer magnetic (and was an orange color).  It was then quenched in oil.  I then tempered it in an oven at 375 F.

I am now thinking that the oil quench may be the problem and that I need to quench in water.  What do you think?

Thanks,
Bruce

[SCLoyalist]

Both the frizzen hardening instructions that Track of  the Wolf includes with Kasenit and the Kit Ravenshear pamphlet on metalworking recommend quenching with water.

However, Ravenshear's instructions say that the frizzen needs to be bright orange when you apply the Kasenit, and that you should hold that temperature for up to 20 minutes for the Kasenit to 'soak in'   (add more Kasenit as required during that time).   Track's instructions call for 2 minutes at a cherry red.   Both suggest using an oxy-acetylene torch.  Track says quench in warm tap water; Ravenshear says use cold water (and the temperature difference between the two, given you're about to dunk a 1600 degree piece of steel in it, seems insignificant to me).

I've done it with a charcoal brazier with a blower to get the temperature up, but that has to be done outside, and it's  more difficult to judge colors in the daylight.

Good luck.  SCL

[amohkali]

if you haven't started with Kasenit's instructions (available from Track and others), I'd suggest at least giving that a try.  The other guys are right about depth of carbon penetration (of course -- they have done the research), but I'd try with the instructions for the tools/equip I had available.

That said, what Ravenshear says makes nine tons of sense from the way I understand steel forms crystals and absorbs carbon.  Still,  I'd try the standard instructions, then the latter...or send it out if I didn't trust myself.

[Rootsy]

The frizzen was heated with an acetylene torch until it was no longer magnetic (and was an orange color).  It was then quenched in oil.  I then tempered it in an oven at 375 F.

I am now thinking that the oil quench may be the problem and that I need to quench in water.  What do you think?

Thanks,
Bruce

Unless you know what material you have you cannot make an accurate assumption as to which medium and medium initial temperature to use in order to achieve a proper grain structure in the finished component. 

It is all about cooling at a "rate" from a specific temperature in order to achieve a final grain structure... Saying cherry or orange red and oil or water is very non descriptive and is like throwing a dart at a dart board with your eyes closed...

If you are doing any heat treating on your own without an oven and other gadgetry you need, at the very least, to get yourself a Machinery's Handbook and KNOW what material you have before you even begin.

[heinz]

Water quenching on a frizzen can be a disaster with signifcant stress damage to the materia.  As Benedict just said, know your material, and when in doubt follow the insructions ;-).

You could also be having problems because you are not drawing down the temper enough after hardening.  A frizzen that is too hard could also be problem

[Artificer]

You could also be having problems because you are not drawing down the temper enough after hardening.  A frizzen that is too hard could also be problem

Great point, Heinz.  I had some problems with some frizzens before I figured that out myself.

As for quenching, I was taught this years ago and it has worked extremely well with both original and reproduction parts.  Get a clear plastic container about 10 to 12 inches tall.  Fill it up to perhaps three inches from the top with distilled water.  Then fill it up another inch with Mineral Oil.  The last two inches at the top (or whatever you wish to leave as room on top for the parts to go into the quench) is empty.  You can drop or quicly plunge heated parts through the oil into the water very rapidly.  The oil slows the "shock" of cooling and causes less cracking of parts when you aren't sure what they are made of. 
Gus

[Benedict]

You could also be having problems because you are not drawing down the temper enough after hardening.  A frizzen that is too hard could also be problem

I am pretty sure that the problem is not inadequate tempering.  The first time I tried hardening it, I did temper it to 375F and after a very few snaps of the lock there is a noticable groove in the frizzen where the flint hits.  The second time I did not even try to temper it and the flint is still gouging the frizzen.  Clearly it is too soft.

Thanks,
Bruce

[J.D.]

The frizzen was heated with an acetylene torch until it was no longer magnetic (and was an orange color).  It was then quenched in oil.  I then tempered it in an oven at 375 F.

I am now thinking that the oil quench may be the problem and that I need to quench in water.  What do you think?

IMHO, a part needs to be heated to a coupla color gradients above non-magnetic to harden properly. Non-magnetic is about 1425-1450, or so. Hardening temp is 1550, for most high carbon steels.

I suggest reheating the frizzen to a higher temp, then quench in light oil. If that doesn't work, reheat and quench in water or brine with about 1/4-3/8" of light oil floating on the water.

If that doesn't work, try the Kasnit, but put the kasnite in a small open top, steel box, just large enough to contain the frizzen, and then some. put the frizzen face down on about 3/8-1/2" of Kasnit and put it in the forge for at least a half hour. IMHO, longer is better, then quench in water with oil floating on the surface.

Temper at 350-375, then remove any scale or discoloration and temper the tail and the pivot, to a blue. Stop heating the tail/pivot before the golden colors run across the pan cover to reach the face of the frizzen.

If you use a kitchen oven to temper the frizzen, be sure to use two good oven thermometers to regulate the temp. The thermostats on kitchen ovens are notoriously innacurate. Some of them are off as much as 100 degrees, so one needs to monitor the oven using an accurate thermometer,  in order to accurately temper small parts.
God bless

[heinz]

Bruce, the frizzen gouging is an important observation.  I was trained when hardening small parts with an acetylene torch to keep the flame a little carbon rich to avoid leeching carbon from the part face and creating a soft layer.  I was also taught two passes at hardening and throw it out.  I do not know if either of these is true but they worked for me.  The last post had very good advice.  I would only add to be patient at the temperature to be sure they have soaked through the part.

[Benedict]

Thank you for all your suggestions.  The frizzen is now working fine.  I tried one more time at hardening but this time I did a water quench.  Then I tempered it at 375F in the oven for an hour.  It is now sparking just fine.  I think the main problem was the quench.  The first two times I was quenching in oil and because of the flames, I would pull it back out of the quench which made for an even slower quench.  Thus it never got hard enough.

Several of you mentioned floating oil on water for a "gentler" water quench.  That is something that I will remember in the future.

Thanks to all.

Bruce