Author Topic: Tin chargers  (Read 15896 times)

Offline rich pierce

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Tin chargers
« on: March 04, 2010, 02:17:19 AM »
Anybody know a maker of tin powder measures? Apparently these were common issue for some military units and may have been used by civilian riflemen as well.  Thoughts and sources?
Andover, Vermont

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2010, 04:02:07 AM »
Rich,
As soon as I can get hold of some decent tin I will be making some like Jim Mullins has shown in his book. I do not know of any suppliers at this moment though.
One was mentioned on FF board but the website link did not show them.

James

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2010, 04:10:23 AM »
Rich/Roger,

I have purchased small quantities of tin sheet before at the local crafts store (Ben Franklin).  I have also seen such sheet at Plaza Art which is another regional art supply store.  I don't know if any of the national arts and crafts stores would carry it or not.   If I could get some sheet, how many powder measures did  you want, Rich?

Mark

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 04:29:33 AM »
Just curious here. Are we talkin' sheet TIN or TINNED sheet steel? Since the local hardware calls galvanized flashing "tin," I'm a-wonderin'...
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amohkali

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2010, 04:38:52 AM »
Just curious here. Are we talkin' sheet TIN or TINNED sheet steel? Since the local hardware calls galvanized flashing "tin," I'm a-wonderin'...

It would be tinned sheet iron in the period, but tinned "sheet steel" today.  The tinning would be done with a hot-dip, most likely.

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2010, 04:58:32 AM »
Many of the "living history villages"  I've visited in the past had a tinsmiths craftsman shop.  I know that Greenfield Village had one that as part of their interpretation.  the supplied a lot of stuff dfor sale in the village gift shops.   I'm wondering if Col. Williamsburg might?  If so they would know of a source of reasonably authentic bulk stock.   if anyone has a contact there.  .  .  .  .  .

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2010, 06:13:24 AM »
Rich/Roger,

I have purchased small quantities of tin sheet before at the local crafts store (Ben Franklin).  I have also seen such sheet at Plaza Art which is another regional art supply store.  I don't know if any of the national arts and crafts stores would carry it or not.   If I could get some sheet, how many powder measures did  you want, Rich?

Mark


Probably at least a dozen.  They'd make nice gifts.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2010, 09:00:14 AM »
I am talking about tin sheet; actual tin.    Rich/Roger,  did you want tinned sheet steel or solid tin.   The tinned sheet is shiny.  Actual tin is gray.

Mark

Offline davec2

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2010, 09:29:19 AM »
Sheet tin, in .032 thickness and thicker, is available from McMaster Carr, but it is fairly pricey.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#tin/=62en6a         click on "sheets and bars" button

A 12" by 12" sheet of .032 " thick tin is about $56.

Dave C
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 09:32:49 AM by davec2 »
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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2010, 03:06:28 PM »
As I recall from my museum days most of the colonial "tin" products were basically very thin sheet metal with a thin coating of metallic tin on each side assembled by folding, bending riveting and soldering. it was much like galvanized sheet metal but more flexible, easier to do on a small scale at an earlier time.

 pure tin was used on occasion to coat the inside of other products to prevent corrosion.
  I have an original early late 18th-early 19th cent copper tea kettle as well as a slightly later red copper french drip coffee pot and both were heavily tinned on the inside.  both show repairs.  Apparently they were re-tinned by having an amount of pure tin put inside and the pot heated and swirled so the the molten tin recoated the inner surface.

jr

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2010, 05:02:41 PM »
Ace Hardware stores sell what's listed as S&G brand, solid tin sheet in several thicknesses in their crafts section. very inexpensive. great for tinklercones, so maybe chargers?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2010, 07:41:37 PM »
I am talking about tin sheet; actual tin.    Rich/Roger,  did you want tinned sheet steel or solid tin.   The tinned sheet is shiny.  Actual tin is gray.

Mark


I don't know enough to say.  I would not want the cut edges to rust.  I guess the edges could be "tinned" as we do with soldering joints.  Do you think these would be cones or with a flat base with a loop on the flat base to tie a string/thong to?  I think I have seen pictures of originals with a flat base like that.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2010, 02:53:38 AM »
All the ones that I have seen, were tubes with a flat base soldered on and a wire loop through the base.   Later on, you see spent cartridge cases being used. 

I was never sure myself whether pure tin was used or tinned sheet iron/steel.   All of the tin ware that I have seen around is tinned sheet steel.   I have no idea where to get that stuff.   

I guess we need someone who has actually had one of those old "tin" measures in their hands.   

Mark

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2010, 02:56:55 AM »
I am pretty sure they were tinned sheet iron.
I have sent an email to the guy who pictured one in his book to get his opinion.

Offline sonny

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2010, 05:47:28 PM »
what do these tin chargers look like?......sonny

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2010, 06:53:52 PM »
Like Mark said, they pretty much resembel a flat rimmed straight wall cartridge, like a 45-70 but fatter, but they have a seam along the side as they are not extruded but rolled IIRC.  And from the base they have a loop for a thread or thong
Andover, Vermont

Offline G. Elsenbeck

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2010, 08:10:21 PM »
Rich, you might want to try Peter Goebel at Goose Bay Workshops to see if he has any for sale.  On this page of the link is a copper funnel for powder horns:  http://www.goosebay-workshops.com/THE-SHIP-S-STORE

Gary
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2010, 09:33:38 PM »
I have a tin one Myron Carlson made for me years ago...he said that way back in the old days they generally available from hardware stores and gunshops.  Kind of a standard commercial item. Track sells a generic brass version pretty cheap. You could torch "tin" those I think if you wanted to have the tin look.
TCA

 
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2010, 09:40:04 PM »
The tin chargers are easy to reproduce.  Fifteen to twenty years ago I cranked out several hundred of them using "dairy tin".  I ran into a few big sheets of triple-dipped dairy tin once used to construct milk holding tanks on dairy farms.  Then the powers to be outlawed tin milk containers because tin got into the milk.  Once the dairy farms went over to stainless steel storage tanks the good dairy tin was no more.

Around 1800 a gunsmith would charge 25 cents for one of those tin chargers.  From what I have seen with some original rifles found still in the gunsmith's wooden box I think each new rifle came with a tin charger from the gunsmith.  Most calibrate to "one grain per caliber" or a little less.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2010, 09:47:48 PM »
Digging through my desk drawer I found one for a .50 caliber rifle out of the last batch of tin chargers I made about 15 years ago.  If I knew how to post pictures in a thread I could show the basic concept behind their construction.

Bill K.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2010, 09:51:18 PM »
Digging through my desk drawer I found one for a .50 caliber rifle out of the last batch of tin chargers I made about 15 years ago.  If I knew how to post pictures in a thread I could show the basic concept behind their construction.

Bill K.

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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2010, 11:13:59 PM »



Lanyard ring on tin charger

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2010, 11:29:02 PM »

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2010, 11:56:12 PM »
The body, or tube, portion of the measure was formed around bar stock purchased at the corner hardware store.  Different sizes for different bores.  The idea being that the finished charger should be a loose fit into the bore while the ridge around the cap keeps the measure from flaaing down into the bore.  The exact sizes escape me at this time but I had one size to form .45 caliber measures, one for .50 caliber and a third for .54 caliber bores.

Using my Treso adjustable measure I estimated the length of the body necessary to throw 90 grains of powder in the .50 caliber size.  After assembly I would trim them down to the volume the shooter wanted.
With the .45 caliber chargers I would make them to a length throwing 70 grains.  Then later cut them to the charge volume the shooter wanted.

Since I was making them in numbers I would cut a strip of tin plate with a width equal to the desired length of the finished measure.  Then line up the edge of the tin with the bar stock mandrel and clamp that in a vise.  Then gently bend the tin part way around the mandrel.  Once the tube was almost completely formed I would use tin snips to cut it away from the strip and then finish bending to a closed tube.

Since I was making them in quantity I would clamp a heavy piece of music wire in the vise horizontally.  I would cut a piece of wire sloder, slide it into the tube at the seam and slide a bunch of them onto the music wire.  Take the propane torch and go down the seams of the tubes lined up on the music wire.  With the seams pointed down the solder flowed into the seam easily.  Left them cool and slid them off the wire.  Usually having about 6 or 7 on the wire.

Next step was the caps on each one.  I would cut strips of tin just a bit wider than the tubes.  Flux the strip and suspend it in vice jaws slightly open.  Stand the tubes up in a line on the tin strip.  Drops chunks of solder down into the tubes and hit the strip from underneath with the propane torch.  As the solder in the tube melted it formed a bead between the tubes and the strip.  Left the unit cool.  Then used tin snips to cut around the solder bead on each cap.

Most of the original tin chargers I looked at had little tin plate loops to attach a lanyard to.  Holding the tin charger to a pouch strap.  But shortly after I began to make these exactly like the originals there was a problem with the rough edges of the tin strap loops cutting through heavy string or leather lanyards.  So I switched to forming loops out of wire instead.

I quickly learned that soldering the lanyard loops to the caps was a problem.  If you heat the cap and loop to solder then the bead holding the cap to the body melts and the whole thing just falls apart.
So When it came time to solder the loops on the caps I would place the measure back on the metal forming rod and clamp that gently in a vise where the cap was soldered to the body.  Then I could heat and melt the solder to hold the wire loop on the top of the cap without melting the bead of solder holding the cap to the body.

When I was doing this I was using acid flux and good lead/tin solder.  I have no idea how well this would go with the present lead free solder.  I know that this lead free solder is creating all sorts of problems in the electronic field.

Bill K.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Tin chargers
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2010, 06:28:03 AM »
Myron was a wizard with a torch, but hen he soldered up brass flask halves, heat control was the major problem...with a torch he quickly found it gave too much heat and unsoldered as many joints as it sealed...he ended up using an old time copper headed hand iron...the kind you heat in the charcoal burner...using that he worked from the inside of the flask...as the solder flows to the heat...with that method he made up many nice peace flasks that Dixie sold in halves years ago...maybe a thick copper
grounding rod could be used the same way to heat and solder from the inside of a tin measure?
TCA
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