Author Topic: Touch hole liners??????????  (Read 61031 times)

Offline Jim Chambers

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2010, 04:37:24 AM »
Actually, someone did take apart some original guns to inspect the touch holes.  Lynton McKenzie had a number of original English guns that he shot.  He noticed that some of those guns were much faster than the others.  Upon inspection, he discovered that the ones that were fast has a specific shape of internal cone.  He gave a talk about his discovery on the back poarch of Gun Maker's Hall at Friendship one shoot.  Bob Harn and Mark Silver tried making liners to the specifications Lynton gave in his talk and found that those liners seemed to really speed up ignition.  Those guys talked me into paying for the tooling to produce the new liners so that they didn't have to make them by hand.  Thus was born the "White Lightnin'" touch hole liners.
And, as Forrest Gump said, "That's all I'm going to say about that."  I'll leave the discussion about need/speed/historical correctness up to you guys.  I've made guns all different ways and even have one of Tom's neat little internal coning tools.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2010, 06:37:18 AM »
Thanks Jim for ansering my question on old guns and liners. I'm gonna stick with my white lightning.     Gary

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2010, 07:42:30 PM »
Jim,
Instead of answering any questions, you only raise more.  The first time I looked at a diagram of the internals of your liner, it was perfectly obvious to me that it was only a variation of Nock's Patent breech's internals.  During that same time period a number of English gunmakers, including Nock, Manton, W. Greener, and others, had a great rivalry to improve ignition and even held public trials to prove whose gun shot best.  However, only slight variations in the design existed, just as they do today among commonly available liners.  This design is some type of modified bell curve.  The design was carried over into English percussion guns which rapidly overtook flint designs during the same time period, and rendered them obsolete.

Quote
Actually, someone did take apart some original guns to inspect the touch holes.  Lynton McKenzie had a number of original English guns that he shot.  He noticed that some of those guns were much faster than the others.
 

This information is probably lost since Lynton has passed, but raises questions.  I'm sure all his guns were by well known makers, but we know that the liner is only a small part of lock time and that other factors of the gun's design also contribute to speed.  I believe that your original Manton lock was the fastest as tested by Pletch.  He has also shown that speed is subjective since only milliseconds exist among his tests and that although some speed variation exists among different liners, this variation is not discernable, because it is only one part of the equation.

What bothers me is that the commonality of all these English guns is that they had patent breechs.  By their design, the internal cone is drilled from the off side of the breech and the resulting hole filled with a plug, usually platinum.  Once sealed, it is impossible to see the internal cone unless the plug is drilled out.  Are you saying that Lynton actually did this, which seems illogical to me, or that the guns he examined did not possess patent breeches but only had regular plugs with internally coned holes?  Given the development of the English gun at the time, this also seems illogical to me.  Are you saying that the guns he examined did not have patent breeches?


Quote
Upon inspection, he discovered that the ones that were fast has a specific shape of internal cone.  He gave a talk about his discovery on the back poarch of Gun Maker's Hall at Friendship one shoot.  Bob Harn and Mark Silver tried making liners to the specifications Lynton gave in his talk and found that those liners seemed to really speed up ignition.

Given such an august body of historically correct builders, I wonder why they did not pursue the replication of the internally coned touch hole instead of taking the easy way out and just making a liner.  This only reinforces my earlier postings about coned liners being a 20th century adaptation of earlier technology.  And the question still stands, "How did 18th and 19th century American builders handle this situation?"  Who has disassembled a sufficient sample of American guns to provide a statistical sampling to deduce whether internally coned touch holes or straight drilled holes were the "norm."  Other than the few anecdotal examples others have given, I don't believe this has yet happened.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2010, 03:28:31 AM »
. . . . . . .On the other hand, the first gun I built was with a Doublas barrel, 7/8" straight in 45 cal.   I shot this gun a lot with merely a hole drilled for a touch hole, and it worked fine.   Perhaps I was new to the game and didn't realize how
slow it was ?????   . . . . . . .     Don

Don,
Maybe that straight vent was an advantage.  It kind of forced us to learn our locks and how to manage them very well.  I'll bet there are a bunch of fellows here who learned how to shoot a flint with a straight vent gun and maybe are better shooters because of it.
Another thought is that with a well managed lock, sharp flint, clean vent, and good prime, we won't be able to hear the difference.  It might be a little slower than a WL liner, but we won't be able to tell it.  I have maintained for years that if you can hear the difference, there is something more wrong.  It's my unproven opinion that a fouled vent is the cause of more slow fires than anything else.  All that said, I surely do like Chambers liners.
Regards,
Pletch
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 03:35:22 AM by Larry Pletcher »
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2010, 03:55:41 AM »
I had the pleasure of hearing Lynton at a couple of Bowling Green Seminars.   IMHO he had no equal in his knowledge of the English flint period.   In those discussions my plan was to be a sponge and soak up everything I could.  I did not hear the talk that Jim C mentioned, but wish I did. 

I'm sure that many of you could speak well of Lynton.  In my case one story stands out.  He was discussing a Stodenmayer lock on a rifle, and said that he felt its springs were too harsh and jarred the gun, lowering scores.  He made a set of milder springs and felt the gun shot better.  I must have said that I thought we could time the difference.  He agreed.  He mailed the lock to me to time with the harsh springs, time the milder springs, and then mail it back to him.  He was correct.  The harsh spring version of the lock is still #2 on my alltime fast lock list.  The mild spring version ranked #3 on that list, but was more consistent than the other version.  He was certainly tuned in to that lock.  BTW the fastest lock on that list was also owned by Lynton - a original Manton.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Jim Chambers

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2010, 04:11:52 AM »
I wish someone had had the forethought to record Lynton's talk about the liners and a lot of other things he said.  I guess we just didn't dream he would leave us so soon and take all that knowledge with him.  His talk was a long time ago, and I cannot remember all the details about the guns he examined or whether he even dwelled on them at all.  All I remember is the fact that the cone had to be a specific "bullet" shape, not just a round shape, and the web thickness of the hole needed to be .010 to .020 to bring the main charge out near the pan flash.  But, keep in mind he was talking about English guns.  I cannot remember ever seeing a gold or platinum touch hole in an early period American made gun.

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2010, 05:37:47 PM »
I wish someone had had the forethought to record Lynton's talk about the liners and a lot of other things he said. 
That emphasises the importance of writing these things down. People like Jim Chambers know more than the average workshop tinkerer, so if people like Jim Chambers write it down, someone like Jim Chambers could even publish a book.

Now, if we could just come up with a name of someone like that ?????????? ::) ::)

JLE

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2010, 10:20:18 PM »
I will admit this has been a very interesting topic. I enjoy this site very much and have nearly a hundred pages I have copied from this site to refer to in my builds. I have put one liner in,due to a burned out touch hole. I know there are a lot better builders out there than I am. I just want to say this one thing.
My G.G.G.Grandfather, Charles Magin was a member of the Cresap Rifles from 1774 to 1776. From August 1776 to 1779 he served with the 7th.Maryland Regiment of the Continental Line. From what I have researched he carried a Pa. Long rifle. He made it back to Ohio in 1803 by flatboat and settled near Manchester,Ohio with his family. All of us on this site can 100% agree, there was no "touch hole liner" on his rifle.

Online JTR

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2010, 12:41:34 AM »
All of us on this site can 100% agree, there was no "touch hole liner" on his rifle.

I assume you can offer pictorial proof of that?


Just kidding ;D ;D ;D

John
John Robbins

Online rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2010, 05:32:21 AM »
I wish we knew how many original Kentucky rifles had internally coned touchholes.  Most originals have either been percussed or the barrels set back and re-breeched at some time in their working lives, or if not, may not have been unbreeched out of concern for marring them up.  Maybe somebody who has worked on a lot of originals could tell us if they've never, occasionally, or frequently seen internally coned touchholes.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2010, 03:40:23 PM »
A couple of years ago I discussed this with someone at Friendship, but I disremember who.  We wondered if an internal cone could be determined by inserting a 1/16" or smaller bit and wobbling it back and forth to see if it was a straight hole or coned.  It would seem that a straight hole would feel different than an internal cone.   Perhaps a quick side-to-side would let you know if there was a bigger void than a straight hole.    I don't know whether this would be allowed by a collector or a museum.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2010, 03:57:37 PM »
Pletch.....I'm not sure about inserting a 1/16"drill bit into the hole and trying to "wobble" it around, not sure it would prove anything.  So many of these old guns are so eroded in the breech area that I don't think this would be a good test.
I seriously doubt that we will ever know if, or how many, may have been coned on the inside...........Don

Dave Faletti

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2010, 09:28:51 AM »
With the miniature camera systems available these days a bore scope should be available to get a good look without disassembling the gun.

The other DWS

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2010, 03:55:32 PM »
On the original wrought-iron/ soft steel barrels does the erosion just gas-jet cut the touch hole larger; or does the combination of erosion, wear from picking and corrosion etc create an internal cone of sorts over time?

Online rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2010, 04:19:01 PM »
Impossible to tell on a well-eroded breech, I imagine.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2010, 04:55:58 PM »
Don and all,
Sounds like my idea was a bit of wishful thinking.   
Larry
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2010, 03:42:47 AM »
This is a great thread for an inquiring type like me. I like the mix of tradition and science. In a previous life as an performance engine builder I spent a lot (understatement) of time attempting to understand the principles of combustion and the methods of producing more or stronger amounts. In the early 80`s I built a air flow test bench to help with some design problems we were having at the time. First thing that floored me was the massive effect a parabolic curved entry has on gas flow thru an orifice or port. Depending on the pressure differences it was at least 25% or greater. Also there is a marked difference how a gas stream will eject from a hole or port depending on the shape of the exit. With this type of background my "idea" of the perfect vent would be one that allowed  the main  charge to be close to the source of ignition, as in a coned interior. This would be coupled with an exterior hole with a radiused or multi-angled entry... Just about what all has been said already...   :) Kerry

JLE

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2010, 05:32:23 AM »
I may be missing something on these post's, For the folks that believe there were old rifles built with the touch hole coned from the inside out,just how did they do it??

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2010, 05:38:47 AM »
Quote
I may be missing something on these post's, For the folks that believe there were old rifles built with the touch hole coned from the inside out,just how did they do it??
You are missing something.....you have to read all the posts to understand the whole thread.  Go back several pages and click on the link I posted which will take you to a tool at Colonial Williamsburg.  And it's not a matter of believing, its a matter of fact.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Captchee

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2010, 03:44:16 PM »
  did not Brockway  or maybe it was Shumway ???/ ,  show a picture  of an original  hand cranked, counter bore in one of their books ?

Daryl

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2010, 04:46:37 PM »
Coning the inside is easily done through the breech end of the barrel with a round bit - turned by hand, with water, steam or electricity. I've used a round diamond stone and a dremel to good effect.

Joe S

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2010, 07:22:14 PM »
How thick to you leave the barrel wall?

keweenaw

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2010, 07:54:29 PM »
With inside coning it's important to leave an appropriate wall thickness.  Because the barrel steel will burn out faster than the stainless of a White Lightnin' liner, I like to leave about 0.025" - 0.030".  The shape of the internal cone is also important to retain some strength.  If you use a round dremel burr to cut the cone you end up with an area of considerable size that is thin.  I would leave considerably more thickness than the 0.025 if I were cutting a round internal cone.   It's also hard to control the burr to run exactly down the 1/16" pilot hole.  The cutter I make to do this is piloted on the hole so it's exactly concentric and is parabolic in shape so that the barrel thickens quickly as you get back from the end.  One also needs to keep in mind that if a rifle that is coned internally is shot a lot, eventually the touch hole will burn out and need to be lined.  The internal coning needs to be done with enough care that a liner can be appropriately installed.

Tom

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2010, 11:34:54 PM »
This is a great thread and I have learned a lot!  The timing couldn't be better for me.  I am ready to install the touch hole in my current build and had intended to use one of Jim's WL liners.  I have to admit I do not like the look of liners on my guns and would prefer not to use them, so was happy to find out about Snyder's counter bores.  I have ordered a set and will use one on this build.

Here's a thought right off the top of my head.  Not much else up there these days  ;D.  I have re-read all 5 pages of the thread to see if it was covered, and couldn't find it.  Please forgive me if it has been covered.

If a barrel has an internally coned touch hole and that touch hole becomes shot out, why would one have to install a liner like one of Jim's WL (which, by the way I really like as far as liners go)?  It seems to me one should be able to re-drill the touch hole minimally oversize - say 1/8" or less and make and install a small straight liner or sleeve while retaining the internal coning.  The liner would probably be in the area of .030" or so long  (if my thinking is correct).


To take this one step further, It seems to me one could use one of Tom's 3/8 counter bores and install a minimal diameter (whatever that might be)  liner from the get-go.  Seems to me. that might give a falla the best of both worlds.

Just my thoughts - and not entirely well thought out at that.

Laurie

Online rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners??????????
« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2010, 11:43:44 PM »
So many possibilities!  I always keep in mind what I want to do with the build.  If it's for my own use, I can do what I want.  If for a customer, I'd better do what they want.  Let's say for the sake of discussion that you make a rifle with a Chambers or other liner for a customer, and the customer sometimes has ignition problems.  The customer is not going to cuss you out, because you used what is accepted as the best.  The customer will assume HE/She is doing something wrong.   But if you told the same customer that a plain or internally coned touch hole is as good, and they experience exactly the same %age of misfires, they will cuss a blue streak and badmouth you at least under their breath.  Same with a customer who gets so-so accuracy with barrel "X" that everybody recognizes is top of the line and hard to get.  They just know that they have to tinker with something, not that it is an inaccurate barrel.  But if you told them, "You don't need barrel X!  They all the same!" and they had exactly the same accuracy problem, they would blame the barrel and blame YOU.  Same is true for locks, etc.  Many times it's just best to go with the flow or the conventional wisdom with customers, and do the experimental stuff for your own builds.  Just putting another angle out there.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:45:54 PM by richpierce »
Andover, Vermont