Author Topic: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?  (Read 8418 times)

Offline flintriflesmith

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Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« on: March 08, 2010, 04:24:04 AM »
Got it Yesterday!!!   Excellent publication! great pictures and articles!!
Will there be an electronic version??

I am not involved in the decision about whether there will be an on-line version or not, but, it brings up the old "why buy the cow if the milk is free" issue. One reason for the publication of this journal was to encourage folks to join the CLA. Complimentary copies of the first issue only were sent to the KRA members and the Horner’s Guild because they are seen as logical candidates for CLA membership.

We live in a world where folks have come to expect information to be given away. There was a good article about this culture in Newsweek a couple of months ago. Newspapers in particular have been struggling with that issue and some have resolved it by selling on-line subscriptions.
 
Researchers have to deal with it all the time – how much of their hard won knowledge do they “give away” by posting it on the web or including it in some casual magazine article or lecture? Will folks still buy the cow (perhaps in the form of a scholarly, expensive to produce book) if they believe they have already had enough milk?
Every researcher/historian has to make his or her own decisions about that. For me it is on a case-by-case basis. I have put research on my web site that could have been converted into a magazine article with just a little more work and the addition of a few pictures. When I do that I am very aware that there are differences in how the information will be used, distributed, and even believed that depend on where it resides almost as much as the actual content.

Come to think of it…that would make a pretty good article!

Gary
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:17:14 AM by flintriflesmith »
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 05:04:21 PM »
I split this topic out because it is a subject worthy of its own discussion. It would also distract from the Kudos that the "American Tradition" deserves.

Tom
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:04:40 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 05:22:27 PM »
Perhaps I am old school. I like to have a book in my hand. I like the feel of the book, how it looks, how it smells. Also if the electricity goes off, I can still read my book.

I like how money goes from the purchase of the book back to the author. This supports the research, and will help fund future publications.

I don't mind paying for valuable information. But part of what Gary says is that we have come to EXPECT information for free. How can the author survive financially if their information is free? Must we find other ways to make a living?

Perhaps one way to make some money from your research is to publish a hard copy first, whether in book or magazine form, and then publish it on the web after the restriction period is over. There are also websites where you can purchase the hardcopy(sites where they print books on demand), or buy an electronic version.

The web is proliferated with all kinds of information, both documented and unsupported. I must be careful when collecting my resources. I am also of the kind that thinks the web is a temporary thing, that it will just go black in a flash, with no warning. I guess this comes from my experience with machinery. Everything is transitory.

In that light, I am concerned for the quality and direction of human life, that we base so much of our culture on an information machine that we have ourselves created. Yet the machine we have built is being used to create us.

Tom
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline JTR

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 06:26:55 PM »
Certainly some guys will just take the milk and forget the cow, but without the cow, you’ll not get the cream.

For me, the internet is a great place to search out otherwise difficult or relatively obscure subjects, and by doing so, you’ll generally find some information on the topic. And a lot of time, the initial tidbit of info will lead to more, sometimes ending with a book on the subject where you’ll actually get the cream, if you’re willing to pay for it. So in that respect, the free info by the author leads to a purchase of his book, in order for to receive more information.
 
A quick for instance; another interest of mine is making knives, but not just a blade with a handle on it. The one I’d like to make next will require the use of some stuff called Mokume Gane. While not unavailable, it’s not really common either. It’s basically a sort of Damascus, but instead of steel, is made using layers of silver, brass, copper, various colored gold’s, platinum, etc. Usually it has two or three different colored metals heated and pressed together to form different patterns. My problem is that none of the standard patterns will work for what I want to do, because I want a pattern and color that will look like raw pinkish/red salmon flesh. Internet searches have  lead me to jewelry shops that have it in the form of rings, some suppliers that sell it as sheets, basic information on how to make it (but I’m lacking the forge and press), then finally to a guy that can and will make it in the color and pattern that I need. In this case, I’ll be getting what I want, and he’ll be getting the cream!

As for our guns here, I read a lot of different web-sites, for the milk. But if Gary, or Eric Kettenburg, or Jack Brooks to name a few, were to write a book on their area of expertise, I’d buy it in a heartbeat!

If the milk was good, no doubt the cream will be better!

John    

« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 06:38:07 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 06:30:09 PM »
I wish to address this issue relative only to this web site and our Museum and Library effort. Though  I completely agree with the need to financially support the researcher and respect and reward his/her academic  effort, the goals of the ALR Virtual Museum and Library are not commercial in any way. In establishing this effort and its success , we have relied on the contributions of the community of interested collectors, builders and researchers.  We hope we can continue to do so. Our effort is to teach and provide access to information that is solely provided by volunteers  who wish to see the furtherance of the study of this aspect of our culture and art. We also reasoned that many individuals had “factual” knowledge that would be lost forever unless there was a common repository for even the most miniscule facts….genealogies, unsigned gun identification, re uniting of families with their ancestral works, etc. All of these and many other goals have repeatedly been accomplished here. This body of knowledge builds daily in the Antique Gun Collectors forum, the Museum and Library and I suspect in all other areas of the ALR website. It is now available to all, including the researcher , “free” and should continue to be, in the spirit described above.  Others needs need to be respected also as they require considerable expense  and should appropriately charge.

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 10:44:53 PM »
To paraphrase Acer, some of us just like cows.

As one who is in a different part of the selling-of-hard-earned-information business, deciding whether and how much to charge for information is always a challenge.

Hurricane is exactly right that the Museum and Library are valuable resources that have been made available without charge through the generosity of the committee members who administer those parts of ALR and the collectors who have provided the photographs and other data collected there.  But the committee and collectors have chosen to make the gift voluntarily.

It seems like "something for nothing" is an expectation of entitlement to many in our society, and one that has replaced "an honest days wage for an honest days work."  But I am approaching the political.

Larry Luck


Offline rich pierce

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 11:03:21 PM »
The carrot worked for me.  I joined the CLA just to get the publication.  Well, it put me over the top.  They're well worthy of our support.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Joey R

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 12:22:42 AM »
Rich, I second that motion. I've attended the CLA show in Lexington for a few years now and just recently joined------glad I did.
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2010, 12:28:53 AM »
The ice cream parlor gives out a free taste for a reason, that being to sell ice cream, and it works.

Offline Bill-52

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 02:48:53 AM »
In this age of vast amounts of information, available 24/7, I think this is a very worthwhile subject. 

From my perspective, the knowledge & expertise within the ALR community and members' willingness to share has been extraordinarily helpful in building my first longrifle.  Likewise, the Museum & Library has enabled me to view and study more originals than I could ever hope to see.  The same goes for the link to the contemporary blog.

However, I cannot envision building a longrifle or learning all I want to know about longrifles relying solely on the generosity of ALR members.  (No doubt, you would tire quickly of my requests for help!)  For that, I've bought several books about building, augmented by books on collecting and the history of longrifles. 

Thus, the distinction is a function of the specificity and scope of what I want to learn.

BTW, after thinking about joining the CLA for some time, I joined last week.

Bill

jwh1947

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 03:31:02 AM »
My experience is that gun people are essentially "cheap," and I used that term by distinct choice.  At least we in the cartel admit it; it is part of our culture.  When I was president of KRA, many of the men who came for a weekend to trade $50,000 rifles whined like stuck pigs when we suggested upgraded facilities for a few dollars more per night. 

Some of the most generous people I know make $40,000 a year and I would trust my life to them.  Many millionaires I know will short the waitress.  Wayne 

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2010, 03:51:25 AM »
Perhaps I am old school. I like to have a book in my hand. I like the feel of the book, how it looks, how it smells. Also if the electricity goes off, I can still read my book.

I like how money goes from the purchase of the book back to the author. This supports the research, and will help fund future publications.

I don't mind paying for valuable information. But part of what Gary says is that we have come to EXPECT information for free. How can the author survive financially if their information is free? Must we find other ways to make a living?

Perhaps one way to make some money from your research is to publish a hard copy first, whether in book or magazine form, and then publish it on the web after the restriction period is over. There are also websites where you can purchase the hardcopy(sites where they print books on demand), or buy an electronic version.

The web is proliferated with all kinds of information, both documented and unsupported. I must be careful when collecting my resources. I am also of the kind that thinks the web is a temporary thing, that it will just go black in a flash, with no warning. I guess this comes from my experience with machinery. Everything is transitory.

In that light, I am concerned for the quality and direction of human life, that we base so much of our culture on an information machine that we have ourselves created. Yet the machine we have built is being used to create us.

Tom


   Thanks Tom! This is well put and to the point.
                                                   Dan     

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 05:02:13 AM »
Right after Gary's post I posted:

"Well said Gary, Write it!!  BTW it is very easy to put a magazine online that requires a paid subscription to a password protected site and the magazine is posted in Adobe Flash and is not copyable ( well at least not with easily attainable legal methods)....... It can be read online but NOT downloaded.Many of our scientific journals are that way.   If you want a reprint of an article you have to buy it."

The ALR is a different animal than the American Tradition magazine. One is best free and the other is a paid subscription and a creative property for which paid reprints could be available online as well as online access to view only. To me that is no contradiction. The authors in each case are clear on their intent and their offering. We can do best by respecting that and encouarading the growth of both media.
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 07:39:25 PM »
The ice cream parlor gives out a free taste for a reason, that being to sell ice cream, and it works.
What I've been seeing lately is a lot of folks complaining that the free sample wasn't big enough or didn't' have enough nuts in it!

Give a lecture where research is abstracted and summarized and you are sure to have someone upset that you made "a bunch of undocumented statements/claims." Same with an article in something like Muzzle Blasts. If I summarize the information found in searching hundreds of period documents by saying the powder being sold in stores in the 18th-century did not include anything resembling priming powder someone will say that is an unsupported claim!
Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 08:43:37 PM »
I'm a book buyer.  Having subscribed (for really small $ donations), I have been the happy recipient of a vast wealth of information, met dozens of people of a like mind, and been inspired to a new level.  In spite of the phenomenal acquisition of free information, it only serves to make me want more, and that is found in books.  Example:  show me on-line where I can see a collection as in "Steinschloss Jaegerbuchsen", or "Flintlock Fowlers", and perhaps two hundred more such books.  I think that as long as there are authors to write them, there will be readers who want to own them.
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Joey R

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2010, 10:51:30 PM »
Taylor, My sentiments exactly. I buy the books also and read and admire. A reputable publication just keeps giving no matter how many times you open it. These publications are worth MORE than every cent and that's my 2 cents worth.
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

Offline WElliott

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 01:06:34 AM »
Seems to me that every serious collector, and every serious builder, should gladly invest in putting together the best library available.  Building and sustaining real knowledge, and not just fantasy, is foundational to success.  I appreciate on line materials, but that supplements, not replaces, the library I have put together the past 40 years.
Wayne Elliott

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2010, 02:28:24 AM »
I happy to realize that those of you who have had all these nice things to say about buying the books think just like me.  I’ll count on your support if I ever get around to writing a book! Personally, I have always been book poor and my only problem with my passion for books is that I sometimes don't get to spend enough time with each one.
If you want to see the complete opposite end of that spectrum from how y’all seem to think there are two things to look at--one right here on ALR:
Go back to my posting on December 10th about Wallace's MB article on that original shot bag (in accoutrements). If you read down through the thread you will see him accused of reaching conclusions based on undocumented speculation, etc. The root cause of some of  these complaints that Wallace summarized hundreds and hundreds of wills and inventories and didn't footnote every reference.  I believe he did a fair job of giving out the ice cream sample and, considering the space available and scholarship level of the average MB reader, put in plenty of documentation.  The same complaint has been made about his holding back some information for his book when he has written those articles on original rifles.

Another even more “entertaining” read is on another message board (http://frontierfolk.net/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=28734&sid=da9d8e793ee6a02dc222eaea47d4e1e1 )where 16 pages of replies have been spent discussing loading blocks all based on someone posting a photograph of one published in 2001. Throughout those posts there are references to those “!@*%&@ historians and experts” who refuse to take the time to explain what they mean when they say something is probably a fake. The thread also includes a counterpoint – “It is in print so it must be true.”  And other great wisdoms like “I can think of it so, therefore, the old timers did think of it.”
Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline Joey R

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2010, 06:14:27 AM »
Gary, You write the book and I'll buy it not just for your knowledge but also for your contributions to this forum. Can't ever have too much reference. Heck! I have a stash still saved up for Wallace's book. Maybe someday??
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

jwh1947

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2010, 06:35:07 AM »
I am looking forward to Art DeCamp's book on screw-tip horns.  Art is as knowledgeable as anyone in the world on these horns and, if I am not mistaken, his forthcoming book will discuss regional defining characteristics.  This one is destined to be a milestone. 

Never pass up a good screwtip.  Missing the tip?  No problem.  Some of these boys can assist you there.  Consider the increase in both price and value of crisp screw tips over the past decade, relative to other Americana. Wayne

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2010, 03:09:02 PM »
I'm a book buyer.  Having subscribed (for really small $ donations), I have been the happy recipient of a vast wealth of information, met dozens of people of a like mind, and been inspired to a new level.  In spite of the phenomenal acquisition of free information, it only serves to make me want more, and that is found in books.  Example:  show me on-line where I can see a collection as in "Steinschloss Jaegerbuchsen", or "Flintlock Fowlers", and perhaps two hundred more such books.  I think that as long as there are authors to write them, there will be readers who want to own them.

I agree with you wholeheartedlyTaylor! As a researcher and having spent the last 6 years in the publishing field......The issue does not have to be free vs. paid for.    Many of us love books...in print...on paper. The change is that more and more people want their books in electronic form, to read on their computer or Kindle or whatever. Electronic versions of textbooks and novels are already available.... and the publishers aren't giving them away!!!

As we look toward bringing younger generations into the "Long Rifle Culture" We need to deliver information to them in the media they want and can/will use.  Not everyone can handforge their own barrels and locks to build longrifles...... and not everyone in the future is going to be willing to buy physical books when they can have digital books that are more convenient for searching, available instantly and don't take up space in their open faced shelter!! ;D

Wouldn't you like to be able to buy RCA in an electronic format. Same price...same copyright protection Same quality /or better of art???

Think about it
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 03:12:31 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Why buy the cow if the milk is free?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2010, 05:30:05 PM »
Gary,

You write a book and I'll buy it !!  I'll even pay extra for an autographed copy. 

I love books.  If I find nothing else at a gun show but a good book, I consider that time extremely well spent.    I love rereading books to ensure I've absorbed the knowledge and may catch something I overlooked the first time.  I take a book to read while I wait at the Doctor's or Dentist's office, at the VA hospital, or anywhere I expect to wait for even a few minutes.  The only trouble I have with books is trying to remember where I read something to go back and  check it out or quote it AND being able to buy all the books I would like to have and store them.  Grin. 

I have found that within no more than 6 months from the time I purchased a book, the knowledge in the book led me to something that more than paid for the book. 

As to the people here who so generously share their knowledge, I'm extremely grateful for it.

In the course of my 23 years as a NM Armorer in the Marine Corps and working on these and other modern guns since my retirement, some folks here may be surprised that knowing something about the way 18th and 19th century gunsmiths and other tradesmen did things really came in and still come in  handy on many occasions.   There have been many times over the years when something came up that I thought about how the historic gunsmiths may have done something and then adapted it on modern guns.
It really helped me when I was the Instructor of OJT's (apprentices) at the Rifle Team Equipment repair shop at Quantico. 

Gus Fisher