English Powder?

[agaboric]

I thought I would see what you guys thought of this. I was at our first muzzleloager shoot this year and one of the members who is a real nice guy and very informative at least I thought so (this comming from a guy who does not know what a 6:00 sight picture was) anyway he told me to use a little english powder when loading my rifle. What you ask is english powder well is is apparently cearl or cream of wheat and you pour a little bit over top of your powder and is is suposed to cut do on fouling. So I was wondering if anyone uses it too, or is this just a thing that some people think works but has no real advantage one way or another? Just thought I would throw it out there.
-Andy

[Daryl]

COW - is used by some cast bullet shooters. It helps insulate the base of the bullet, preventing gas cutting, which produces lead fouling. If used in a ML, it will 'dry' the bore and should tend to foul more.  This is due to the COW scrubbing the lube deposited by the patch onto the bore leaving a dry surface for the fouling to cake onto.   

Using a ball/patch/lube combination that does not allow fouling to build up will give much better increased fouling control, that adding something else to the load.  I equate 'fixes' like this to modern day snake oil salesmen as in the past.

I thought fouling buildup was a thing of the past - as in , doesn't happen any more as we all now have a good muzzle crown, that allows a snug ball/patch combination which never needs wiping as the 75th shot loads as easily as the first.

[The other DWS]

COW and other fillers are used by shooters who are using older large historic blackpowder cartridges with modern high energy/low volume smokeless powder (or reduced BP loads) to control the powder placement in the case and insure consistent ignition.

I can't see any valid reason to use it in a non-cartridge muzzle loading rifle and suspect it might wind up doing more harm than good in the long run.  Besides it'd be inconvenient to carry a separate creame-of-wheat horn   and I'd hate to grab the wrong one when I was fixing my breakfast

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well for the cost of Cream of Wheat, I say, why not give it a try?

I've heard of it before but never bothered with it because I'm always looking for "simplicity".  To have to measure a charge of cream of wheat after throwing a bp charge seems too much hassle.

I do however use something similar - that is a grease cookie.  Basically about 1/2 of deer tallow between charge and ball.  This seals AND lubes the bore.  I can load and shoot indefinitely w/o swabbing.  However it does require a number of shots to "dress the bore".

[hanshi]

This is just another take on the over powder wad concept.  While common in some cartridge reloading, it is occasionally espoused as a cure for burned patches, etc.
I see it as needlessly complicated and too prone to error.  It is so much easier to use a felt, leather, dry patch or even wasp nest wad over the powder.  This does help ballistics and often accuracy as well.  I normally use an op wad for these reasons but not Cream of Wheat.

[agaboric]

Well I thought it sounded a little funny to me, but since I am new to MLing I really did not know. I guess I will just keep doing what I am doing, however not having to swab my barrel is a wonderful thought.
-Andy

[Candle Snuffer]

Spit patch and a tight patch & ball Andy.  You'll not have to swab your bore very darned often. 

I too had only heard of using COW for when patches were blowing.  I've never had to use it fortunately.

[Maven]

A couple of points:  Ken Mollohan of the Cast Bullet Association enthusiastically promoted the use of Cream of Wheat (COW) as a filler when using reduced loads of smokeless powder and cast bullets (primarily wheel weights + 1% - 2% tin) as a means of reducing bore leading.  It works as Ken claimed, but accuracy often suffered in the process.  While I've used fillers, both cereal and polymer (spherical shot buffer) in my .30cal. (metric & English) centerfire rifles with cast bullets, it has always been in very small amounts (0.3cc, 0.7cc, or 1.0cc, via Lee dippers) with one very slow military surplus extruded powder, IMR 5010.  Understand, I did so to increase the pressure and hence the cleanliness of the burn, as evidenced by significantly lower extreme velocity spreads and standard deviations, NOT to reduce bore leading (which wasn't a problem in the first place).  Would it scour the bore in muzzle loaders using BP as well?  I have no idea, but with a proper lube, patch thickness and round ball combination, I wonder whether there's so much fouling as to be problematic.  I use Graf's (Wano) or Goex powder, both FFg and FFFg, with Winchester Sutler's Moose Milk, Ox-Yoke's Wonder Lube, or 103 Lube, wipe between shots and don't have much of a fouling problem.  If you're adventurous or don't mind another loading step, maybe "English powder,"  say 10 -20 grains (volume) is worth trying.  Btw, I no longer use cereal fillers in my centerfire rifle loads as I disliked the additional loading steps. 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

If you're interested you can try what I do.

Take a piece of 1x2 lumber or anything 1x and drill holes approximating your bore size.  9/16" holes work fairly well for a .54.  

Of course you'll note that the holes are deeper-than-caliber.  This allows you to lay the patch material over the block, push the ball in flush to the board, and trim the patch with a sharp knife.  Just like cutting patches at the muzzle.

After filling the block flip it over and use a putty knife to fill the backsides of the holes with bore-butter or equivalent lube.  

When loading I push the ball a little bit with my thumb to expose some of the bore butter.  I set the block on the muzzle with the bore butter plug aligned in the bore.  I push the ball onto the muzzle with my ramrod and then remove the block.  Using just the ramrod I finish starting the ball and ram it home.  

I don't have a patch-ball combination so tight that it requires a short starter.  I get acceptable hunting accuracy with this set-up.   I don't need to swab.  Using said ball block allows loading without taking gloves off in cold weather.  

[Daryl]

I guess what I & others were saying above, is that it is a fix for a non-existant problem.  If fouling is a problem, then something else is wrong.

[SCLoyalist]

There is an article in this month's Muzzleloader Magazine by Fred Stutzenberger on using corn grits instead of Cream of Wheat (and this latest article references a 1994 Muzzle Blasts article on Cream of wheat as a filler).

25 grains (by volume) of grits or COW may reduce fouling by doing a bit of scouring on the way out.  It will protect your patch from hot gasses, which may or may not be of help in any particular gun.   And, sometimes it will tighten a group up, either by protecting from patch blow-out or by moving the patch and ball up-bore past a rough spot in the barrel (e.g. old gun that somebody left a load in for a long while, creating a ring of pitting).

In a new gun with a pristine barrel, you shouldn't need it, and using an inert filler is an extra loading step.   If you have a gun that just won't group, it's a cheap experiment.   If it works, then you can try to figure out why it worked and see if there's a more elegant fix.   And, since Agaboric's original question was about fouling reduction, you can see if there is any fouling reduction enough to justify the hassle of pouring cereal down the  bore.
  SCL

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Please tell me how COW in front of the burning powder can remove fouling that isn't there anyway?  What fouling?  After the shot there's fouling, I concur, and it is pushed down onto the next powder charge by the next patched ball, leaving a clean barrel.
A burnt patch has been cut at the muzzle, or on the rifling, and/or is burnt by gas cutting, as the gases go past it.  That REALLY fouls the bore.  As an extreme example, shoot 100 grains of your choice of powder with NO patched ball.

[SCLoyalist]

Please tell me how COW in front of the burning powder can remove fouling that isn't there anyway?  What fouling?  After the shot there's fouling, I concur, and it is pushed down onto the next powder charge by the next patched ball, leaving a clean barrel......

Fouling reduction is attributed in one or the other of the articles I cited above was attributed to "granules of Farina compressed into a gas tight seal that eliminated blowby, allowed more complete combustion, reduced fouling.."   , and "larger mass to move and the scouring effects of grits in the bore."   Stutzenberger did  note, as a subjective observation, that the fouling seemed less.

The main theme of both articles was that sometimes an inert filler like COW or grits between powder and patched ball will result in tighter groups when a rifle shows a 'declining abililty to hold a tight group.'   I tried it once a few years ago on a new-to-me used rifle that was shredding every patch I tried and giving me 8" groups at 50 yds.   With the COW, the patches looked pristine and the groups were really groups.  Eventually I found a patch & lube that eliminated the need for COW.  

  Anyway, if fouling is reduced, my guess it would be due to more complete combustion of the powder because the powder is having to move a greater mass (lead and COW) and there isn't any blow-by.

Beyond that, all I can suggest is to read the two articles and if still curious to direct questions to the authors of the articles.

[westerner]

Spit patch and a tight patch & ball Andy.  You'll not have to swab your bore very darned often. 

I too had only heard of using COW for when patches were blowing.  I've never had to use it fortunately.

I agree with the spit patch statement. Might be too simple for some shooters. Cant be that easy lol. 

I might try a little COW under the card wad in my slug gun. Last time I shot it I recovered some blown out paper strips when shooting the 750 grain bullets. 


       Joe.

[Mad Monk]

Please tell me how COW in front of the burning powder can remove fouling that isn't there anyway?  What fouling?  After the shot there's fouling, I concur, and it is pushed down onto the next powder charge by the next patched ball, leaving a clean barrel......

Fouling reduction is attributed in one or the other of the articles I cited above was attributed to "granules of Farina compressed into a gas tight seal that eliminated blowby, allowed more complete combustion, reduced fouling.."   , and "larger mass to move and the scouring effects of grits in the bore."   Stutzenberger did  note, as a subjective observation, that the fouling seemed less.


  Anyway, if fouling is reduced, my guess it would be due to more complete combustion of the powder because the powder is having to move a greater mass (lead and COW) and there isn't any blow-by.

The idea that there are times when the combustion of the powder charge is not complete is not correct.
How complete the combustion is depends on the formulation of the powder, not how it is burned.

There will be small differences in the chemistry of the fouling that may make it look like heavy fouling or no fouling at all.

What changes in the subject at hand is how much of the powder's combustion residue is deposited in the bore versus how much is ejected from the bore with the spent propelling gases.
If the grits or COW act to trap particles of combustion residue then more of the combustion residue would be ejected from the bore with the grits or COW suspended in the gases.

Bill K.

[Daryl]

I tried it once a few years ago on a new-to-me used rifle that was shredding every patch I tried and giving me 8" groups at 50 yds.   With the COW, the patches looked pristine and the groups were really groups.  Eventually I found a patch & lube that eliminated the need for COW.  

Exactly

When I obtain a new gun, I take strips of patch material, lube an area that will cover a ball, and smack it into the bore, flush, then pull it out.  I check that material for weaknesses, cuts, that sort of thing as well as examine the ball to see if it's marked by the lands and grooves.  Minor marking from the weave of the material between the heavy marks made by the lands, shows me it is probably going to seal the gasses behind the ball.


When I go to the range with that gun the first time, I take a few different patch thicknesses with me that showed marks all the way around the ball.  Through experience & a good crown, it is rare indeed that any of them burn or shred, however I try them all of some of them to find which one gives the best 'general' accuracy.  I check all the patches & will even use them over again as accuracy is not impinged to a measurable extent.  The most accurate material is used with that gun.  I keep a supply on hand.

[Leatherbelly]

  Fouling? wassat? well sorry, I get some around the vent and lock! But hey, my barrel has very little. With a good lube(spit, Lehigh, or a Winter Windshield Washer concoction,add a little dish soap),a tight ball/patch combo, and a nicely crowned muzzle, my cleanup water comes out a little grey at first, then almost clear as it exits the vent with a wet patch pushed down with my jag.(dang, long winded sentence,sorry) This regimen leads to nice tight groups and excellent accuracy.
  *just a note on the side*: I clean pinned rifles with barrel in the stock, plug the vent and top up with COLD tap water,let sit for 20 minutes. Keyed rifles, I pull 'em apart and slush pump them.
 You fella's who just can't see themselves using a short starter, well you're hit outta luck. You guys will have to wipe! (due to using a thinner patch)
  ...and not to purposely to hijack this thread, I think the short starter a wonderfull little invention,be it period correct or not! It is an "accuracy tool" for me! Good luck with your porridge and corn bread! LOL!!!

[SCLoyalist]

[/quote]


When I obtain a new gun, I take strips of patch material, lube an area that will cover a ball, and smack it into the bore, flush, then pull it out.  I check that material for weaknesses, cuts, that sort of thing as well as examine the ball to see if it's marked by the lands and grooves.  Minor marking from the weave of the material between the heavy marks made by the lands, shows me it is probably going to seal the gasses behind the ball.


[/quote]

I think my problem was at the opposite end of the barrel.   The rifle I spoke of was 25 yrs old w/ a 40 cal Bill Large barrel, and the patches were coming out mostly incinerated, including some .020 thick ticking, and this even with only 20 grains of powder.   I suspect a rough spot way down bore that the patch had to pass over when fired (I never unbreeched the gun to see), rough spot weakens the patch material, allowing blow-by & burning.  The COW perhaps 'fixed' the issue by occupying the rough section of bore with COW with the patch/ball up-bore.   It sure as heck kept any fire away from the patch.   An interesting test would be go back to the patch & lube that was failing, and bump the powder charge up by the volume of COW that was preserving patches.  If a heavier charge resulted in less patch damage, that would support the idea that the problem was due to how far down-bore the ball was being seated.   Regardless, blown patches are no longer an issue on that particular gun. 
 
I'll have to keep your test strips procedure in mind, though,  for future load-workups. It would add a little method to the madness.

SCL

[westerner]

Now I want a new gun 


        Joe.

[Daryl]

SCL - about that possible bore roughness - firelapping with case polishing compound might help just as it does in the instructions for firelapping handguns.

To do this, load a light charge - something like 20gr. in a .45, .50 or .54, then a card wad, then about 2 or 3" of corn-cob or ground walnut husks, both with polishing compound in them. Put another wad on top and fire that - do this 1/2 dozen times, wipe it out and see if the the burnt patches go away.  

I'd forgotten this firelapping 'trick' when Taylor and I spent a lot of time lead-lapping Peter's old .40 that was mildly pitted end to end. We ended up with a gun that is useable and shoots well. No wiping and the patches are just fine after firing.