fng-type question: pouches

[The other DWS]

In perusing the various forms on the site here I find some terminology that confuses me a bit.  In reference to the leather or fabric bag that a muzzle loading rifleman or hunter wore slung over his shoulder;  is there a "correct" term?

I see "hunting bag/pouch" "shot bag/pouch" and "shooting bag/pouch"  used somewhat interchangeably.

 I grew up with the "hunting bag/pouch" term (with "possibles bag" as used by the Rocky Mtn. men-for the same function) for the general function bag.  At some indistinguishable point the "shooting bag/pouch" became more popular as muzzleloading became more common --- probably when the TC Hawken rifles and kits became widely available in my region.
To me  has always been "shot bag/pouch" was a separate container for holding loose shot for use in a smooth bore (as a "ball bag" was used to hold loose rifle or musket balls).

Are these terms, as used, somewhat regional? or am I just being a pickey old doofus?

[James Rogers]

A shot bag in the period was a hunting pouch and the terms  interchanged just like a bag, sack and poke can today. Shot bag may be regional but for sure it saw heavy use in Virginia. Some period documents I have studied for hunting pouches seem to imply that balls were kept loose in the bag and the construction instruction included a divider to separate loose shot from loose ball.

Do not forget that all shot bags/hunting pouches are not shoulder slung like we moderns envision. Belt pouches are there in the 18th century.

I will let somebody that studies the western end comment on "possibles" bags which I believe a different animal altogether.

[eagle24]

My wife calls my pouches "European Shoulder Bags".  She's trying to get under my skin for hanging bags and horns all over the house and standing rifles in every corner.  I think the next bag I make, I'll beat her with it to give it an aged look.  Don't accuse me of talking "big" behind her back either.  She has internet access and could get on here and read this if she wanted to.  

[Randy Hedden]

Do not forget that all shot bags/hunting pouches are not shoulder slung like we moderns envision. Belt pouches are there in the 18th century.

Do you have any references for 18th century belt bags other than Rogers Rangers??

Randy Hedden

[B.Barker]

Dodridge mentions belt poches in his book. Mostly used in the winter was the way he put it if my memery seves me right. I haven't looked through it for several years.

[James Rogers]

Do not forget that all shot bags/hunting pouches are not shoulder slung like we moderns envision. Belt pouches are there in the 18th century.

Do you have any references for 18th century belt bags other than Rogers Rangers??

Randy Hedden

Randy,
There are period paintings showing the use of belt pouches.
The Lemuel Lyman pouch is a belt pouch.

[Randy Hedden]

Randy,
There are period paintings showing the use of belt pouches.
The Lemuel Lyman pouch is a belt pouch.

James,

Did the Lyman pouch also have a shoulder strap besides belt loops??

The story that goes with the pouch says:

'...Mr. Lyman was in the act of firing at an Indian when a ball struck him. It passed across three of his fingers and struck his breast passing through a leather vest three thicknesses of his shirt and his Bullet Pouch, which was providentially in that place and half buried itself in his body.

I can't imagine how a belt pouch interfered with a shot that hit him in the breast?

Could you point me to a couple of those period paintings that show belt pouches?

Randy Hedden

[The other DWS]

very enlightening discussion.  can any one give a link/source for pictures of actual historical pouches?

Also,  does any one have any info on hunting/shooting pouch/bags for the old NW (Great Lakes) area?   I'm interested in making an interpretation of one for my own use.  I've got a couple ideas but wonder about what actually would have been use.   I've seen some ornate quillwork bags that could be used in museums but they are all post-184-ish but I suspect the would be a bit fragile.

[Randy Hedden]

Also,  does any one have any info on hunting/shooting pouch/bags for the old NW (Great Lakes) area?  .

If you aare talking about the French in the great Lakes regions, I would have to say that the pouches would have to have been very simple and quite possibly made of cloth.  We can't even be sure that all of them carried shooting pouches, but may have kept the shooting supplies in a pocket instead.

I am guessing about the plain simple pouches based on the types of horns carried by the French Canadians of the time.  Their powder horns were extremely plain and quite unremarkable.  Somewhat like horns made in Appalachia.

Randy Hedden

[James Rogers]

Randy,
There are period paintings showing the use of belt pouches.
The Lemuel Lyman pouch is a belt pouch.

James,

Did the Lyman pouch also have a shoulder strap besides belt loops??

The story that goes with the pouch says:

'...Mr. Lyman was in the act of firing at an Indian when a ball struck him. It passed across three of his fingers and struck his breast passing through a leather vest three thicknesses of his shirt and his Bullet Pouch, which was providentially in that place and half buried itself in his body.

I can't imagine how a belt pouch interfered with a shot that hit him in the breast?

Could you point me to a couple of those period paintings that show belt pouches?

Randy Hedden

The Lyman pouch has been examined by some researchers and leather workers with more knowledge than me who told me it has two belt straps on the rear and no evidence of any other type of strapping being on it. I have never personally seen the pouch. The quote seems to have a progression inward and starts with a vest then the shirt and then the pouch which makes one wonder if the pouch was not stuffed inside the shirt. Being a relay of the incident we don't know how much is added, taken away or changed about.