Priming Powder

[Frizzen]

I have had people tell me that the old "Elephant" 4 F was the best, others say "Goex" 4 F
and others say to use "Swiss Null B"  Had one Friendship shooter who is a past Champ, tell
me to mix 4 F half and half with 7 F.  Is the Null-B 7F? Larry, you ran any test on this? If so, guess
I missed it.  Me, I've been mixing 4F with 7F.

[Daryl]

GOEX 4F IS the best I've tried. Come to think about it, it's the only prime I've tried. You use what's available, I guess.  When I ran out, I used GOEX 3F- worked just fine, but I prefer 4F.  I've some ICI 1F, but the frizzen won't close on 2 kernals of it- it's closer to cannon grade or larger yet.

[Larry Pletcher]

Frizzen,
In a 2005 MuzzleBlasts article I timed 3 samples of 4fg, one 3fg sample and a ffg sample.  The 4fg samples included two samples of Goex 4fg, one of Swiss 4fg and Swiss Null B.  So far nothing is faster than Swiss Null B. I don't know what class Null B fits into.  If you asked me to bet my truck on the fastest ignition, Swiss Null B would be involved.

Daryl, this past week Steve Chapman and I had a reason to time 10 trials Of Goex Cannon grade powder.  The horn  it came from had a 1/4" hole; some granules got caught  in the spout.  The granules had to be arranged in the pan to get the frizzen to close.  It averaged .082 seconds.  That's twice what Null b will do, with all the other BP grades in between.

Regards,
Pletch

[Frizzen]

Thanks Larry, I have never tried any Null-B.  I will be at Friendship in June for the whole week,
and I will get a lb.  Got a lot of shooting to do.

[roundball]

GOEX 4F IS the best I've tried. Come to think about it, it's the only prime I've tried. You use what's available, I guess. 

Goex 4F is all I've used now for my 10 years of Flintlocks and I think it's great stuff.
I refresh it often when out hunting in high humidity / damp / drizzly weather as it will draw moisture from the air...always fast, never failed me, affordable, available, etc.

[Gene Carrell]

All of your  Swiss  powders will draw moisture from the  air, perhaps  even worse  than GOEX.

[Candle Snuffer]

This past couple weeks I did a bit of my own testing with the 4f Goex, (March 10th - snowing with 60% + humidity) and then just this past Sunday, (March 14th - heavy fog with very high humidity 90% +),,, and I was actually pretty happy with the results.

On March 10th, I fired 27 shot with no issues whatsoever.  I wiped the pan and picked the touch hole before priming for the next shot and all went well.

On March 14th, I fired 15 shots - again with no issues whatsoever using the same method as on March 10th.

Granted, I was doing continuous shooting both those days, but still, I wasn't loading that fast.  I wanted to give the 4f prime a good test in humid conditions and I've concluded that perhaps instead of using the 3f as a prime like I had been, I will start using my 4f prime.  Wiping the pan and picking the touch hole certainly makes a big difference I'm sure in those conditions, otherwise I'm sure I would have had some issues with the humidity.

Sorry, nothing to add on any of the other priming powders.

[roundball]

I don't believe you'll see a problem at the range...I've shot entire range sessions in pouring rain (from under an open shelter roof) where the air was practically 100% and never have problems with prime...its not exposed long enough for each shot.

While sitting for deer or squirrels on real humid / damp days it seems to take 30-45 minutes to start to effect my 3grn charge of Goex 4F...and I learned to flip open the frizzen and do a simple check about every 10 minutes as follows:

Normally, dry prime in a dry pan will slide/slosh back and forth easily (like water) with a gentle rolling of the Flintlock from side to side, requiring only the slightest amount of tilt.

But when I have to tilt one at a more acute angle before the prime moves...and even then, maybe only half of it breaks away and moves (like a "calving glacier") then I know it's starting to "cake up" and I brush it out and refresh.

If left in there longer, the top surface of the prime will actually start to get a "skin" on top of it, similar to the texture of the top of a cake when it comes out of an oven.

And finally, even on dry days where the prime doesn't seem to be bothered by the air, I refresh it at least hourly anyway...takes too much work and luck to get a good buck or turkey in the sights so I don't take the risk when a half a penny's worth of fresh prime might make the difference.

NOTE:
Remember this too when hunting...some prime will invariably get into the vent from movement...and it can be affected by damp air same as what's in the pan...so I worry that if not brushed out every time the pan is refreshed, if left alone it might turn to goo and clog up the vent...so when I brush out the pan I also brush out the vent opening as best I can.

[Mad Monk]

All of your  Swiss  powders will draw moisture from the  air, perhaps  even worse  than GOEX.

Utter and total nonsense!

Bill K.

[Mad Monk]

I have had people tell me that the old "Elephant" 4 F was the best, others say "Goex" 4 F
and others say to use "Swiss Null B"  Had one Friendship shooter who is a past Champ, tell
me to mix 4 F half and half with 7 F.  Is the Null-B 7F? Larry, you ran any test on this? If so, guess
I missed it.  Me, I've been mixing 4F with 7F.

The 7F you mention was a fireworks powder somebody got their hands on.  It was originally packaged as 7FA.  The actual grain size is close to regular 3Fg.

Some fireworks powders lack the "glaze" found on the rifle type powder.  Makes it easier and quicker to ignite.  And by "glaze" I do not mean graphite coating.  This "glaze" is formed during the drying and polishing of the powder.

Bill K.

[coutios]

   Bill, I would have to agree with Frizzen about the 7F. Used to get it from old Mountian State ( Across the river in W.V.) Came in a brown paper bag.. It is real fine, almost a powder. It may be on the line of a flash powder.. May be a fireworks powder but way finer that 4F.  I also mix 50/50 with 4F.. Have about half a pound left...

Regards
Dave

[Mad Monk]

   Bill, I would have to agree with Frizzen about the 7F. Used to get it from old Mountian State ( Across the river in W.V.) Came in a brown paper bag.. It is real fine, almost a powder. It may be on the line of a flash powder.. May be a fireworks powder but way finer that 4F.  I also mix 50/50 with 4F.. Have about half a pound left...

Regards
Dave

I don't know where Mountain State got their hands on what they called 7F powder.  From a friend close to that operation, told me they got their hands on some of it but could not find anymore of it.  I do know that GOEX had shipped 7F to a fireworks company in Australia that then sold it as a propellant powder.  My buddy in Australia checked grain size and found it to be similar to 3F rifle powder.

The use of a true 7F size would puzzle me.  Elephant made one run of a true 5Fg powder.  When used in a flintlock pan it was very slow to ignite.

When you go smaller than 4F in bp there is little air space between the grains of powder.  Really slows it down.  This slowing is also seen in pressure bomb work with the different granulation sizes.

Now if you take a larger grain size such as 3F or 2F and give it a light coating of very fine BP it speeds it up.

Bill K.

[Mad Monk]

Rather than start another thread on this.

The hygroscopic behavior (affinity for moisture) with black powder is determined by two factors.  One factor is grain size per unit of mass.  Finer grain sizes simply have more surface exposed to the air compared to the same weight of the larger grain sizes. 

The most critical factor in this is the purity of the potassium nitrate used.  If the potassium nitrate used to make the powder contains even traces of a sodium compound it will be more hygroscopic than a powder made with potassium nitrate totally free of any sodium compounds.

For a period of time in the first half of the 1900's most commercial potassium nitrate was produced by the conversion of sodium nitrate to potassium nitrate.  Then between 1968 and 1970 a new process came into use where potassium chloride mined in New Mexico was comverted to potassium nitrate via a reaction with nitric acid.  The potassium chloride was found in the same salt beds as common sodium chloride salt.  The flotation process used to separate sodium chloride from potassium chloride was not 100% effective/selective.  Some sodium chloride would be carried over with the potassium chloride.
From around 1972 until 2000 GOEX used potassium nitrate produced by the now defunct Vicksburg Chemical Company.  The grade of potassium nitrate sold to GOEX contained about 0.5% of sodium nitrate.  The trace of sodium chloride being converted to the nitrate salt the same as the potassium chloride.

Now sodium nitrate has been described as being hygroscopic.  It is actually deliquescent in nature.  The difference being that something that is hygroscopic picks up only small amounts of moisture from the air.  Sodium nitrate picks up enough to dissolve itself and form a solution.

At 92% relative humidity pure potassium nitrate will pick up 1.6% its weight in water.  Sodium nitrate picked upo 16% of its weight in water from the air.

So that 0.5% of sodium nitrate in the Vicksburg Chemical Company potassium nitrate exerted an influence on the behavior of 4F pan powder far out of proportion to its actual weight in the powder.

After Vicksburg Chemical went bankrupt GOEX had to switch to potassium nitrate produced in Chile.  With no measurable amount of sodium nitrate in it.  That was in 2000.
So this switch in potassium nitrate suppliers made a big improvement in how the 4f powder behaved in the pan of a flintlock in damp weather.

GOEX, Swiss, German, Brazilian, and Slovenian BP are made with grades of potassium nitrate free of any measurable amount of sodium nitrate.  So all stand up well to humid air.

In that respect we U.S. BP shooters have better powders available to us then we did 20 to 30 years ago.

And if anyone asks.  I checked both powders and potassium nitrate sources in my powder work.  Testing for hygroscopic behavior was just one of my jobs in synthetic polymer lab work.

I might add that ICI (C&H) had a QC test for supplies of potassium nitrate where they measured the amount of moisture picked up by a sample at 92% R.H.  If a sample picked up more than a specified amount the lot of potassium nitrate was rejected.

Bill K.

[Larry Pletcher]

I hope everyone is  soaking this all up.  Pun intended.
Regards,
Pletch

[Mad Monk]

I hope everyone is  soaking this all up.  Pun intended.
Regards,
Pletch

Pletch,

I have had some private messages suggesting I talk you into looking at that moisture pickup thing from the aspect of lock timing.

If you remember way back we talked about your finding that the function of the pan powder represented roughly 60% of the lock time while the mechanical end of it was about 40% of the lock time.

With black powder.
Normal moisture content of the powder at the time of packaging runs around 0.25% to 0.75%.  But usually more like 0.5%.
We know that as the moisture content of the powder is increased it will slow down the ignition speed and burn rate of the powder.
In chronograph work I did not see any real slowing of the powder until the moisture content went above 1%.  Then the velocities will fall off dramatically up towards 1.5% moisture content.

So there are a few out there who wonder what this moisture increase in a pan powder would do to lock time when it comes to firing the gun.


Bill K.

[The other DWS]

years ago when I was doing a lot of educational 1st person interpretive work, one of my schticks was to casually in the midst of talking about something else take out my pipe, tobacco pouch, flint, and charcloth  and fire it up.

  The whole relevance to this discussion is I went through a LOT of char cloth.   I found that a coarse fibre (old weathered canvas by preference) "caught" the sparks a lot better than a fine tight woven twilled cloth.  in the latter the sparks had to burn their way into the fabric.
  In somewhat of an analogy I'd surmise that a much finer priming powder would allow the incandescent metal particles to lie on the surface, forcing them to burn their way down into it before complete ignition; whereas a slightly coarser grade powder would allow the sparks to mechanically penetrate a bit in the micro seconds before conflagration.  Then there is the aspect of the amount of atmospheric oxygen available in the spaces between particles.

Obviously this all happens so fast in either case that it can't register in our senses.

[54Bucks]

 I also agree from experience that Swiss Null  doesn't draw moisture any quicker than Goex 4F. However.....perhaps Monk could explain why,when hunting and you fire a shot that the next pan full or more will draw moisture much quicker than before the first shot. Perhaps something left in the pan after firing that 1st???
 Or just condensation from firing a cold gun (Pa. winter temps)

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The powder may have had a coating applied, like graphite, that makes taking on of H2O less likely.  The fouling that remains is very hydroscopic...it sucks water out of the air, and when there's lots in the air, your pan can become a pond in just a few minutes.

[Mad Monk]

I also agree from experience that Swiss Null  doesn't draw moisture any quicker than Goex 4F. However.....perhaps Monk could explain why,when hunting and you fire a shot that the next pan full or more will draw moisture much quicker than before the first shot. Perhaps something left in the pan after firing that 1st???
 Or just condensation from firing a cold gun (Pa. winter temps)

When you burn the first prime in the pan it leaves solid products of combustion.  The major one being potassium carbonate, also known as potash.

At low humidity, say below 30% the potash does not pick up moisture from the air.  Above 30% R.H. it exhibits hygroscopic behavior and begins to pick up moisture from the air.  Once the R.H goes above about 80% the potash becomes deliquescent in nature.


Here in PA.  Sometimes I would be shooting my flinter at the range.  The powder residue on the lock being almost black after the shot is fired.  but leave the rifle just sit for a few minutes and the residue would turn light grey or sometimes white.  The color indicating how much moisture it had picked up or actually given back to the air around it.

For instance here.  The Swiss Nul B, like the other Swiss grain sizes, produces water as a product of combustion.  The only black powder on the market to do so.  The German powder companies once called this "Nass Brand" powder.  Or moist-burning.  But if the residue is exposed to air with very low humidity that water produced as a product of combustion will simply be passed to the dry air around it.  The flip side of that is that at very high humidity black powder residue turns to paste or even a thin liquid film.  The liquif film phase gives trouble with flinters when the liquid film on the frizzen does little more than to act as a lubricant as the flint tries to dig into the steel and create sparks.

Bill k.

[Mad Monk]

The powder may have had a coating applied, like graphite, that makes taking on of H2O less likely.  The fouling that remains is very hydroscopic...it sucks water out of the air, and when there's lots in the air, your pan can become a pond in just a few minutes.

Taylor,

Graphite coatings in no way inhibit the pick up of moisture from the air with black powder.  The old du Pont Blasters" Handbook stated that it has no effect on the moisture resistance of a black powder it is used only to give qive a free flowing powder.  Graphite coatings will give a very short term protection against liquid water.  When the water is dispersed in air in molecular form the hydrophobic nature of graphite does not come into play.  Only if you were to try and dunk the powder in a lot of water.  Graphite coatings are in the form of crystals scattered over the surfaces of the grains.  Not forming what is known as a continuous film.  The water molecules in the air simply go easily between the crystals of graphite.

In my work with the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory I was able to get my hands on powder that had not been graphited and some that had.  When I ran the humidity response tests on the two they simply verified the comments in the old du Pont Blaster's Handbook.

Bill K.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

thanks MM...I stand edified, and thankful for it.  Interesting stuff.

[Daryl]

Some powder is softer than others - has a softer or harder surfect.  I believe the harder the grains of powder, the slower it will be to pick up moisture - makes sense to me - but then, sometimes---?

[Roger Fisher]

thanks MM...I stand edified, and thankful for it.  Interesting stuff.

I like that bit of info that he pointed out re: the schmutzy film on the frizzen from the residue!!   Now I am reminded about wiping the frizzen face between shots of course wiping my own face also can't hurt!

[Frizzen]

Larry, if your going to be at Friendship in June let me know and I will give you a sample of
the 7 F to try.  I will be at the pistol line down toward the shotgun line most of the week.

[Larry Pletcher]

I'll look you up.  I plan to be there for first weekend and leave Wed. or so.
Pletch