Need help determing the value of this gun

[oldrifleguy1]

Good evening,
I have a very old black powder rifle handed down from generation to generation the rifle dates back to I believe 1840 it was made by Henry e Lehman the guns does have some wear and tear. I'm trying to determine the value of this gun currently lost my job and I've have had several offers on this gun but I really don't know how much it is worth. If you guys could give me your opinion I would appreciate it thank you. If these pictures are to big I apologizes. Thank you

[scooter]

"wear & tear"? My friend you have a gift for understatement! I have never seen a patchbox like that one on a Leman rifle, but I suppose it could be OK. I'd guess the cost of good, altho not most expensive, restoration would exceed the value of the restored gun. As it is I'd say a few hundred bucks at best. It would likely go to some relatively new builder who also restores. All that said, I assume you have never seen a gun book before so you were guessing what photo poses to use. If you will visit our virtual museum you will see what views are preferred. If you should insist on pursuing this we'd need to know  barrel length and whether partial or full length stock. I'd also say that you are roughly in the right time frame.

[oldrifleguy1]

Thank you scooter for replying I have several other pictures that I could post. But from what you can tell this is gun is worth a couple hundred at best.

[Dave B]

Well,
Scooter has allot more experience that I but I have seen examples selling for over $600 plus at shows at west here. Of course they are rare out here on the left coast and much more common in the eastern states. So maybe a couple hundred is right on the money for where he's at.

Check your E-mail

[Tanselman]

Your rifle has some decent Leman details on it, and is clearly signed on both the lock and barrel, removing any doubt about the maker. The finish is beat up, but original. I think with a little cleaning, and oiling to put color back into the light areas, the stock will look a lot better. It also has good areas of artificial striping left, which seems to be gaining in acceptance or popularity the last few years. Perhaps the patchbox is the biggest issue.

The patchbox finial is not a standard shape for Leman guns, but does have several Leman details. The cavity looks pretty old, but more importantly, the box has a Leman style three segment hinge that's not filed down on the outer ends. It also has Leman's enlarged or domed brass release button in the toe plate. A final Leman detail, altho perhaps minor at best, is that the box's finial screw head is lined up, which Leman did on a number of his rifles.

I think we need to interpret Jim's "several hundred bucks" on the high end with this rifle. I also don't think Jim saw that the gun was a full-stocked rifle, since your pictures of the forestock are taken at a difficult angle to see details, instead of straight over the gun. But the full forestock appears to have ramrod pipes that are relatively evenly spaced, so hopefully little if any of the barrel has been cut off. If it has at least 40 inches of barrel left, it shouldn't hurt value much.

I think, in its current condition, you have a decent $500-plus gun, and with a PROPER surface cleaning and stock oil applied (tung oil works pretty well), the stock will look a lot better and the gun may bring a couple of hundred dollars more. Any cleaning and oiling must be done in a manner that doesn't damage what's left of the original finish and artificial striping. Shelby Gallien

[Dphariss]

Unless you know what you are doing DO NOT clean or oil the stock. Nothing you can buy is the right stock finish anyway.
Reworking will not greatly increase the value and may DECREASE it unless done by some one with some knowledge of restoration. This is an all too common mistake.
The rifle is a pretty nice Leman, good workmanship etc. Not one of the lower end guns.
The dark areas of the stock are surely oxidation of the original finish and/or poor storage.
It appears to have a modern drum and nipple install, at least the nipple.
If you MUST clean the stock use a soft cloth dampened with turpentine. REAL TURPENTINE.
This should remove the crud and if the cloth is only dampened it will not excessively soak into the wood.
Do small areas at a time and do not remove the original finish. Rub lightly and just remove the dirt. DO not polish the metal.
Sorry I cannot give a better idea of price, but would guess 400-700 range would be fair.
Dan

[nord]

Without a doubt a fullstock. Probably NOT cut down as the muzzle configuration is correct. Not in great shape, though a bit of TLC will make things much better.

I believe I see a broken or badly cracked wrist. Photos are inconclusive. Other than that a fairly pedestrian Leman made at a time when halfstocks were actually more expensive than fullstocks. The patchbox, while painfully plain, looks correct.

Tanselman and Scooter both have valid arguments about the rifle. Generally an intact rough piece without artistic merit will hover in the two to three hundred dollar range. This places Scooter spot on if the rifle is as rough as the photos seem to indicate.

A bit better rifle (which this could well become with some careful cleaning) might easily double the value. Tanselman may be an optimist on final value, but he may also be correct if the rifle cleans up as he predicts.

As things stand I'd place a $500 tag on the rifle and see where the winds blow. Here in the east I'd expect a $300 offer and a sale price of perhaps $400. This on a good day.  On a bad day you'd be lucky to see $300. This is assuming you do nothing to the rifle.

If what we saw in the photos is more the result if 160 years of use compounded by a lack of cleaning and the need for a nice coat of tung oil, then that $300 or $400 is likely to double if you're careful to only clean and not destroy the patina of age.

So... $200 to $300 with no work on a bad day all the way up to possibly double that and a bit more with some luck and work.

Please understand that none of us are giving values for your rifle. We're merely sharing our observations and experiences. Only on the day when an offer is made and accepted will the true value be established.

[JTR]

Pleae, whatever you do, Don't use turpentine on it, real or otherwise! That stuff will ruin the old finish faster than you can say Ohh D**m.

If you feel you have to clean the wood, just use a sponge barely dampened with cold water, as you don't want to get the wood actually wet.

Best of all, is to just leave it alone, and sell it dirt and all.

John

[Mike Brooks]

Sad day indeed when you have to sell off family heirlooms.  I'd keep it and sell the kids.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Surely you have something of more or equal value to sell, rather than let your heritage go.  Like the padded card table it's sitting on.

On the other hand, it might be better off in a collection where it will get some care and appreciation.

[BGC]

I agree that the rifle would bring low dollars. It is not anything exceptional, there appears to be a crack in the wrist and the toe of the butt stock is broken clear through. Being in the condition it is in, it would be rough to get a premium for it in my area. If it is a heirloom, I'd keep it and sell it ONLY if you really have to.

[rich pierce]

I love to see them in this attic condition.  Thanks for sharing it with us.

[Fullstock longrifle]

If you live anywhere near Baltimore Maryland, this coming weekend is the when the Baltimore gun show (Saturday and Sunday at the Timonium Fair Grounds) is held.  If I were you, I would take it to the show and just walk around with it.  You will be amazed at the number of people who will ask to see it and ask if it's for sale.  Just fish for offers and after a couple of hours you should have a pretty good idea as to what it's worth.  If you get an offer that is agreeable, write the dealers table number down and come back to him for the sale.  That way you will more than likely get close to the guns true value.

By the way, a dealer will buy it to resell it, so their prices will most likely be less than what a collector will pay, the collector will usually pay the higher amount.  As long as your comfortable with the price, that's all that matters.

Frank

[jwh1947]

While I do not wish to enter into the numbers game regarding value, I'd gladly pay the lowest figures mentioned.  I see nothing here that is not within the realm of common restoration and touch-up.  Around these parts there is more than normal interest in a piece that has Leman on both the barrel and lock.  Sometimes they sell faster than a carved Beck, because most can afford them and they are signed by a local maker. 

[TPH]

Unless I am mistaken, the drum and nipple are both modern, installed in the recent past.

[Stan]

Lehman Indian trade rifle, more than $600. to the right collector. 

[JTR]

Stan, Sounds like maybe congratulations are in order!

John

[jwh1947]

Yep, nipple is a candidate for a dose of Clorox and a week or so in the kitty litter box.

[Dphariss]

Yep, nipple is a candidate for a dose of Clorox and a week or so in the kitty litter box.

This would constitute fraud when selling an antique rifle.

Dan

[Mike Brooks]

Yep, nipple is a candidate for a dose of Clorox and a week or so in the kitty litter box.

This would constitute fraud when selling an antique rifle.

Dan

If that's the case then 90% of the old guns being sold today are fraudulent.

[JTR]

Only 90%???

John

[mr. no gold]

Dan, it's folks like you that we collectors really like! Because of the 'fussy factor' y'all pass by most pieces that the rest of us don't find fault with. A nipple and a drum are nothing in the field of restoration/collecting. I really hope that you are just kidding. If not? Well...............I'm
guessing that there isn't too much up on your wall.
Regards-El Reekie

[Whitedog]

Has anybody heard from the guns owner since he was logged on the 17th? I sent him an email and a private message but no answer. I'd like to buy his rifle if he still has it and is looking to sell it.  I've got another Leman rifle that it'd look mighty nice with. Fred

[Tom Moore]

I also sent him an email with no reply. I too this this is a pretty nice gun and would love to have it. -Tom

[JTR]

I'm just guessing here, so don't take it for anything more than a guess.

Just after the 1st post, I sent the gun owner an offer of slightly less than $600, and never received a reply.
Read Stan's comment at the top of this page. And obviously he's remained silent since.

Or maybe the owner took it to a gun show and dumped it there.
One way or the other, I'd guess the gun has a new owner at this point.

Who ever got the gun, good for them! With a little superficial fixing, that gun would easily sell for $1500 or more,,, out here on the west coast.
For all you East coast guys that can buy them for 200 bucks, fix um up and send em West!

John