Author Topic: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**  (Read 12625 times)

eagle24

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Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« on: March 19, 2010, 04:49:57 PM »
I've started polishing a Chambers Late Ketland for a rifle I am building next and have a question.  First, I read some of the old threads on lock polishing one of which was Acer's thread on tools and techniques.  He talks about starting with file(s) and then stoning to remove the file marks.  What about the surfaces that are not flat?  Mainly the cock and frizzen that have concave and convex surfaces.  How do you guys go about polishing those areas without creating flats on them?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 06:06:41 AM by GHall »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2010, 05:00:51 PM »
You can use a soft pine stick with wet/dry sand paper wrapped over it. Also some of the 'mold polishing stones' are good. they erode quickly and conform to the surface being polished.

Tom
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eagle24

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 05:10:17 PM »
Acer,
Where do you get the stones you referred to in your tutorial and the ones you are referring to here?

rdillon

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 06:00:33 PM »
I get mine from Gesswein.  I think they are first class.

www.gesswein.com

Rich

eagle24

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2010, 06:50:33 PM »
Acer,
Where do you get the stones you referred to in your tutorial and the ones you are referring to here?

oops.  Overlooked the part at the top of Acers post on Tools and Techniques where he said the part numbers were from gesswein.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2010, 07:02:35 PM »
I've started polishing a Chambers Late Ketland for a rifle I am building next and have a question.  First, I read some of the old threads on lock polishing one of which was Acer's thread on tools and techniques.  He talks about starting with file(s) and then stoning to remove the file marks.  What about the surfaces that are not flat?  Mainly the cock and frizzen that have concave and convex surfaces.  How do you guys go about polishing those areas without creating flats on them?

You simply don't create flats while polishing. Polishing a just like filing. You can change the surface's shape or not depending on tool use.
I use pieces of steel rod, wood dowel, rubber fuel line and heater hose wrapped with wet or dry paper to conform to certain shapes.  Rubber can be bent and in the case of heater hose squeezed to form the shape needed.
Polish the curved surfaces to a given grit then polish the flat surfaces that meet it. Then repeat with finer grits until the desired level of polish is obtained. Polishing the flat surfaces first makes for blurred lines and round edges.

Dan
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eagle24

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2010, 07:14:54 PM »
Dan,
So you do all your polishing with just paper?  Acers thread indicated he used files and rifflers first, then stones.  That's what had me puzzled on the concave (non-flat) surfaces.  If I used a file or riffler on them, I think I would create flats.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2010, 09:14:09 PM »
I used double sided carpet tape, a Popsicle stick and various grits of wet or dry sand paper to polish my lock parts. I had to change the paper often but the end result was pretty good.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2010, 03:49:29 AM »
Here are some ideas:  http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/meth/hndsnd.html

I use a 1200 and 1500 grit silicon carbide wet/dry paper, wrapped on a stick to shape or just folded. or wrapped around a small flat or round needle file as needed.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2010, 04:00:11 AM »
You can use a flat file on a domed surface, you must roll your wrist and pay a mind to the contour while you file. I use a cross hatching method, where I can see that I am filing the surface correctly: file in one direction, so all the lines and scratches are parallel. Then go at an angle to that first pattern, and you will see if you missed any areas because your first underlying pattern will show if you missed a spot. I use this method with files, stones, and paper. Cris-cross with each grit before advancing to the next finer. If you left any deep scratches, you have to go back to the grit that made the scratch to work it out.

I hate polishing. The only way out is to knuckle down and go grit by grit to the polished end product.

Tom
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eagle24

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2010, 06:05:21 AM »
OK, here is the frizzen.  I polished it today using just wet dry sandpaper wrapped around various objects.  I used 220, 320, 600, 1200, and finished it up with a polishing compound.  Took me about 2-1/2 hours and I pretty much ended up with a mirror finish.  Now I am thinking it may be too polished.  It looks chromed.  Sorry for the blurry picture, I don't have a macro mode on the camera I was using.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2010, 06:16:31 AM »
Its fine. Now you can leave it brite, blue it or age it with coldblue rubbed back etc.  Frizzens are hard!! ::)  to polish, because of how they have been hardened.  Nice
De Oppresso Liber
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Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Birddog6

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2010, 02:15:00 PM »
OK, here is the frizzen.  I polished it today using just wet dry sandpaper wrapped around various objects.  I used 220, 320, 600, 1200, and finished it up with a polishing compound.  Took me about 2-1/2 hours and I pretty much ended up with a mirror finish.  Now I am thinking it may be too polished.  It looks chromed.  Sorry for the blurry picture, I don't have a macro mode on the camera I was using.


Depends on what you are going to put it on. I would look at what era & style you are going to replicate & polish it according to what those rifles were.

 I will say it looks excellent & that you will be most proud to know, that YOU have been selected to polish my next poser Jaeger lock that will be done in the white.  Congratulations !!    :o :o   ;D

eagle24

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2010, 04:40:36 PM »
Depends on what you are going to put it on. I would look at what era & style you are going to replicate & polish it according to what those rifles were.

 I will say it looks excellent & that you will be most proud to know, that YOU have been selected to polish my next poser Jaeger lock that will be done in the white.  Congratulations !!    :o :o   ;D

Well Keith, It will be going on an Iron Mounted Southern Rifle.  I'll rust the $#@* out of it and beat it up of course after I get it all polished!  Nah!  I'm thinking of polishing everything and doing a "rubbed back" blued finish, but not pitted like the last one.

Now, as far as me polishing a lock for you.  I'd rather pull saw briars by hand.  But......I thought I would mention to Jim Chambers that he could offer "hand polished" locks and I'm sure customers would be willing to pay an additional $10 or $15. ;)

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2010, 07:40:57 PM »
Acer,
Have you ever tried polishing any flat lock parts on the diamond plates of your GRS graver sharpener?
Dave Kanger

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rdillon

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2010, 12:24:26 AM »
GHall

I will give you $50.00 to polish mine!!!!!

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2010, 07:36:32 AM »
I'd give you a lot more than that but not anything for a lousy job.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2010, 05:38:54 PM »
Dan,
So you do all your polishing with just paper?  Acers thread indicated he used files and rifflers first, then stones.  That's what had me puzzled on the concave (non-flat) surfaces.  If I used a file or riffler on them, I think I would create flats.

Filing is not polishing. Its filing, I consider it a preparation for polish. I seldom polish a lock less than 600. Whether the surface needs filing or not is something I decide at the time depending on the surface.  A fine cut file can save a lot of work in cleaning castings. You should use a round or 1/2 round file for concave surfaces. Preferably a fine cut. Chainsaw files, round (the hardware store variety "bastard" cut is far to coarse but is good for mass metal removal) and small 1/2 round smooth cuts are nice for this. Or you can try 150 wet or dry WITH BACKING. It cuts pretty well and might do enough is the surface is already in pretty good condition, much finer if their is cast in engraving or such you want to keep.
There are a vast array of file shapes and cuts out there if you do some research. My MSC catalog for example has 11-12 pages of files, both American and Swiss pattern.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=972&PMCTLG=00
Should be a one of the Swiss pattern pages.

I have a smooth cut fast taper round file about 10" long that ends at about 1/8" in diameter. I think its a Swiss pattern about a 2 or 3 cut, I bought it near 30 years ago in an industrial supply house.  Its great for areas on cocks with small a radius since the same file will do almost any such shape on the lock. But its getting pretty dull now.
Its hard to buy files from a catalog if you have not had them in your hands. If you have an industrial hardware store in the area its a place to look. BUY GOOD FILES a lot of the oriental communist made stuff is, well, communist quality.
Pillar files, hand files, a big 1/2 round smooth is a great stock shaper and smoother after a pattern makers rasp. A smooth cut mill file is nice for metal work if you keep it clean of chips.  A Magic-cut, big 1/2 round bastard or aluminum file is great for hogging off metal.
Needle files are great for small/tight areas like around waterproof pans.  A really good pattern file that leaves a nice finish is a wonderful thing. But you seldom find them at "Ace is The Place".
Sorry its long but I really like nice files.

Dan
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eagle24

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2010, 10:34:33 PM »
Dan,
That makes more sense whey you say "filing is filing" and not polishing.  I am filing the lockplate to a different shape (mainly just rounding the tail) and re-shaping the cock.  Other than that and a few file strokes to the bottom of the frizzen and top of the pan, I can't really see a need for files.  After polishing the frizzen, I don't see any reason it can't all be done with wet/dry sandpaper and polishing compound unless I am missing something.  Maybe stoning the flat surfaces of the cock and lock plate would result in crisper edges than sandpaper backed with something flat?

Oh, I agree with you on the good files vs. junk thing. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Lock Polishing Question
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2010, 05:03:56 AM »
OK, here is the frizzen.  I polished it today using just wet dry sandpaper wrapped around various objects.  I used 220, 320, 600, 1200, and finished it up with a polishing compound.  Took me about 2-1/2 hours and I pretty much ended up with a mirror finish.  Now I am thinking it may be too polished.  It looks chromed.  Sorry for the blurry picture, I don't have a macro mode on the camera I was using.


I would have stopped at 600 then used steel wool and chrome polish, Simichrome, Mothers etc, to remove the 600 grit scratches. This will give a good finish for color casehardened parts.
If you Kasenite the part and quench at a high red then draw it back to blue all the way through the pan cover to the base of the face heat sinking the face then draw to 375 or so it should look fine. The Kasenite will tend to dull the surface somewhat but it will still look well polished.

Dan
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keweenaw

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2010, 05:26:59 PM »
Over polishing!!  You guys are making this much harder than it need be.  If you talk to the best commercial color case hardening guys, like Doug Turnbull, they will tell you to just do a perfect polish to what a worn piece of 400 wet or dry will give you.  The action of hardening will not be improved by more polishing.  Mark Silver, who is building unaged pieces with traditional finish techniques, intentionally leaves some scratches on the surface of the lock  to avoid the piece looking too sterile.  Another advantage of Not polishing too much is that the action on cold blues, etc. is considerably more even than it is on very highly polished pieces where the liquid tends to puddle and not coat evenly.

This of course applies mostly to American work.  If you're doing British work, take out the scratches but there is no need to go past worn 400 on the outside of the lock if it's going to get pack hardened.

Tom

eagle24

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2010, 05:41:08 PM »
Over polishing!!  You guys are making this much harder than it need be.  If you talk to the best commercial color case hardening guys, like Doug Turnbull, they will tell you to just do a perfect polish to what a worn piece of 400 wet or dry will give you.  The action of hardening will not be improved by more polishing.  Mark Silver, who is building unaged pieces with traditional finish techniques, intentionally leaves some scratches on the surface of the lock  to avoid the piece looking too sterile.  Another advantage of Not polishing too much is that the action on cold blues, etc. is considerably more even than it is on very highly polished pieces where the liquid tends to puddle and not coat evenly.

This of course applies mostly to American work.  If you're doing British work, take out the scratches but there is no need to go past worn 400 on the outside of the lock if it's going to get pack hardened.

Tom

Tom,
Thanks!  That's what I was looking for.  I got the frizzen polished and was thinking it was too polished.  I've not looked closely enough at rifles with polished locks (in person), and have not been around that many other than at the CLA show.  I couldn't really remember how far they had been polished, if scratches were evident, etc.   I really only intended to blue this lock and had a feeling I went way beyond what is necessary (or appropriate).

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2010, 01:19:03 AM »
Over polishing!!  You guys are making this much harder than it need be.  If you talk to the best commercial color case hardening guys, like Doug Turnbull, they will tell you to just do a perfect polish to what a worn piece of 400 wet or dry will give you.  The action of hardening will not be improved by more polishing.  Mark Silver, who is building unaged pieces with traditional finish techniques, intentionally leaves some scratches on the surface of the lock  to avoid the piece looking too sterile.  Another advantage of Not polishing too much is that the action on cold blues, etc. is considerably more even than it is on very highly polished pieces where the liquid tends to puddle and not coat evenly.

This of course applies mostly to American work.  If you're doing British work, take out the scratches but there is no need to go past worn 400 on the outside of the lock if it's going to get pack hardened.

Tom

Tom,
Thanks!  That's what I was looking for.  I got the frizzen polished and was thinking it was too polished.  I've not looked closely enough at rifles with polished locks (in person), and have not been around that many other than at the CLA show.  I couldn't really remember how far they had been polished, if scratches were evident, etc.   I really only intended to blue this lock and had a feeling I went way beyond what is necessary (or appropriate).

Heat blue a high polish is kinda nice, though 320 will give a nice muted color in most cases but heat bluing a frizzen is not possible. 220-320 is plenty for rust blue. Hot tank caustic blue I like 400 or better.
Much of this is going to depend on what the polisher is trying to accomplish.
I prefer over polished to under polished.

I have actually polished quite a few various parts for hardening and engraving, mostly Shiloh Sharps actions. Used to be in my job description. Still is I guess though I don't have a "job" now and seldom polish a brass suppository gun part.
I have found that 600 grit does very well for color case hardening. With the steel wool and chrome polish (Turnbull uses/used this, I have one of his instruction tapes someplace around here) to erase the scratches.
Color hardening needs a better finish than most bluing for give vivid colors. But engravers often don't like them that bright. Dull polish will not give the color or the color definition that a better polish will. But since 600 followed by steel wool and Simichrome is near a mirror there is no reason for more polishing. Though I have been known to us 1500 or 2000 for some specialty project.
This is also dependent on if you are going for the best color or for the look of some original factory gun. Most factory guns were done to 320 or so for bluing,  smoother for color hardening.
So if you are RESTORING a Winchester for example it must be polished to whatever the factory used to do, along with the marks running the right direction in all the right places. Going past this, or running the marks the wrong way will result in the wrong appearance and the restoration is not good as a result. It takes experience to accurately reproduce the old factory finishes, however, once the "how" is learned its not that tough.
But I don't restore old factory guns. I make stuff to suit me. So I high polish, 600, parts for color hardening.

If you think you over polished just lightly polish again with 400 or whatever to bring the polish to the level you want. The actual finish is no more important, maybe even less so, than maintaining good edges.

Dan
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2010, 03:42:37 AM »
No, Dave, but I am thinking of sinking some maple in my brother's pond.
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Offline Rolf

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Re: Lock Polishing Question - **Pic added**
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2010, 09:27:31 AM »
I polished a lock to a 1200 grit mirror finish. I liked the way it looked, but fingerprints ectched into the surface and were impossible to wipe away. I ended up taking the finish down to 600 grit and I'm thinking further down to 400 grit to increase the durability of the finish.

How do you guy protect high gloss surfaces?

Best regards

Rolfkt