Author Topic: Cold water flush  (Read 19301 times)

northmn

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2010, 02:07:55 PM »
I think Roundball may have hit on something also.  Using wax or grease lubes may require warm water to liquefy the wax or loosen it over the liquid lubes which are in themselves a cleaner.  The waxes and greases do add to the crud.  There is also a difference between warm water as in tap water and boiling water like some use.  Warm water may not have that quick drying effect that causes flash rusting?  The recommendations were to use very hot water so that the heat of the barrel dries out any water, which hot tap water may not do?  So far I have found nothing really any more effective than water.  I tried antifreeze, which has alcohol, and other stuff.  It seems to all get down to getting the barrel dried out and protected after cleaning.  I still run patches down the bore a couple of days after.  The idea of hanging or storing the rifle so that any residual water runs out sounds very good as most of the rusting I have seen occurs in the breech when the rifle is set in a cabinet or corner.  At this time I have not found an oil that really prevents rust in the bore either.

DP

Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2010, 06:45:21 PM »
Quote
Rum? Rum and Coke? Did somebody say Rum and Coke? I want one so bad!

Sometimes I use Windex. Sometimes Hydrogen Peroxide, sometimes some stuff thats purple colored and smells like that smell you smell at a hospital. The smell that makes you wished you wasnt there. It's a real strong disinfectant soapy stuff. I mix it with water 10-1.
Water works good too.


Yech!  I'm sorry but windex and hydrogen peroxide seem like awful substitutes for Rum and Coke.   ;)

Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2010, 07:29:59 PM »
I clean my gun with hot tap water and a jigger of Murphy's Oil Soap.  I remove the lock, put one of those Track of the Wolf tubes over the vent and surge away.

First patch is dirty.  Every other patch thereafter is clean. 

I dry with two or three patches.  Then spray WD-40 and run a WD-40 soaked patch down the bore. 

I use grease lubes for most of my shooting. 

I also use only Swiss BP.  That stuff cleans up really well.  Avoid pyrodex like a plague. 

I think most of the battle is simply rinsing the salts away, particularly any chloride residues.  A little bit of acid corrosion shouldn't pit the iron, not like prolonged exposure to chloride will.  If you think about it, many of our guns are browned by intentionally rusting the outside.  This browning actually protects the iron by forming a tarnish coating.  (I'm not saying you'd want this inside the bore, but it might not be the worst thing in the world).

If I recall correctly, it was Bill Knight who explained how chloride ions cause the pitting.  The chloride reacts with mettallic iron to form iron-chloride.  Then if that iron-chloride gets exposed to oxygen (as in air) the oxygen strips the chloride ion of the iron ion and forms iron-oxide (rust).  This then frees the chloride ion to got back and bond with another mettallic iron.  The process continues until the chloride is flushed away, the oxygen source is blocked off (oil), or the moisture dries up (water provides the transport solution for this process to take place).

When nitric acid rusts a barrel the nitric acid gets consumed and the final products at the end of the reaction are inert.  This is why you can brown the barrel.

So, chloride control is key.  Use a powder with the least amount of chloride.  Chloride is an active ingredient in BP substitutes (except perhaps Blackhorn 209?) so there is no escaping it with those.  However, in BP chloride is merely an impurity that enters either through low-quality Saltpeter, or in the charcoal.  Good ingredients used in the BP keep Chloride to a minimum.  So use a quality BP and flush away the chloride ions with clean water. 

Next is oxygen control.  Store the bore oiled.  Water can dissolve oxygen from the atmosphere, WD-40 does not dissolve oxygen. A thin film of oil will prevent the atmospheric oxygen from ever contacting the iron. 

Finally moisture control.  The water is what provides the "highway" for the little chloride beasties to run back and forth from the iron surface to the air surface.  Stripping iron atoms away and depositing them as rust.  Dry the bore as well as possible.

Hot water and soap are used as a means of breaking up the greasy pastes that form as a result of lube and fouling.  That paste can contain a lot of chloride.  So breaking that down is a good idea.  Unless you use a liquid lube.

Boiling water may be too much of a good thing.  I know that whenever I pour water on a hot skillet after frying hashbrowns I'll strip away any "seasoning" and it dries a whitish gray.   So perhaps the hot iron releases too much oil and exposes fresh metal surfaces.  If I let the frypan cool first, then rinse with hot tap water all is well. 

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2010, 09:29:59 PM »
RB might have the right of it! I used Bore Butter for awhile then all of a sudden I couldn't get my barrel clean. This ugly reddish brown crud just would not come out. Finally I cleaned it out with brake cleaner and never used the stuff again.
Now I've just realized that was about the same time I transistioned over to cold water.
Hmmmmmm............
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eagle24

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2010, 11:54:06 PM »
I was reading over this thread and will try cold water next time out.  I have been using lukewarm water and ivory dishwashing liquid with pretty good success of late.  The water is not warm enough to flash rust, just not cold.  I did find out that that lemon joy is not a good soap to use if you are going to use ANY soap at all.

Anyway, wanted to add something about the c-clamp flushing gizmo.  Like Daryl and Taylor, I have about decided I prefer to take the barrel out of the stock, but I ran across an old thread where Keith Lisle (birddog6) had a good idea.  He said he used the c-clamp gizmo and layed his rifle upside down and horizontal in a gun cradle.  I'm kinda dense sometimes, but finally figured out that he turned it upside down so no water runs between the barrel and stock.  Pretty good idea I thought. ;)  I never can get mine on the barrel so it doesn't leak.

Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2010, 12:32:31 AM »
Quote
I never can get mine on the barrel so it doesn't leak.

Can you try removing the rubber O-ring and filing the brass nozzle down a wee bit more?  That might allow the O-ring to protrude more and thus get a better compressed seal. 

roundball

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2010, 01:57:13 AM »

I did find out that that lemon joy is not a good soap to use if you are going to use ANY soap at all.


I love these threads  ;D
I've used nothing but lemon Joy dishwashing detergent for 18 years...fantastic stuff!
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 03:23:28 PM by roundball »

northmn

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2010, 11:48:21 AM »
I did find out that that lemon joy is not a good soap to use if you are going to use ANY soap at all.
I love these threads  ;D
I've used nothong but lemon Joy dishwashing detergent for 18 years...fantastic stuff!
All been there done that, what seems to work for one is an abomination to another.  Spit works for a lube for many, I just do not care for the process.  Dishwashing soap makes sense to me when using grease type lubes as they are designed to cut grease.  Too much may not be a good thing.  The alchemy for cleaning solutions almost matches that of home made patch lubes ;D

DP

Daryl

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2010, 10:04:59 PM »
Spot-On

eagle24

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2010, 11:13:53 PM »

I did find out that that lemon joy is not a good soap to use if you are going to use ANY soap at all.


I love these threads  ;D
I've used nothing but lemon Joy dishwashing detergent for 18 years...fantastic stuff!

I got that from this thread where I was asking about a particular hard to clean barrel I have.  Maybe I shouldn't believe everything on here. ;D


     Re: Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?
Reply #12 on: November 24, 2009, 02:24:56 PM    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would you clean your rifle with a little salt & just a trace of muriatic acid added to the water?

That is Lemon Joy.

Really.

I was Director of Technology at a metals supplier where we sold fancy alloys, kinda like stainless but on Super Steroids. One of our good customers needed it for process equipment making soap & detergent. Got to learn something about their corrosion problems &  just what soap really is these days (since the 1960"s).

Stop using soap. Any soap, but especially the stuff with lemon or orange in it.

Modern soap rusts steel.

If your Gramma still makes soap in an iron kettle, why that is probably just fine.

Don't use any modern soap to clean your rifle.
 
 
 

roundball

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2010, 11:37:32 PM »
Context is everything...we get into this hobby and hear that BP fouling is worse if petroleum based products are used as lubes.

Yet the best all around commercial lube I've ever used is Hoppes PLUS BP...and right on the label it states:  Contains Kerosene

Law states that if its in something it must be stated on the label, but its such a trace amount and/or so refined that it obviously doesn't cause problems.

So I have NO plans to change from using the lemon Joy dishwashing detergent my Wife buys  ;D

eagle24

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2010, 12:01:58 AM »
I guess my original post should have said "was told" that Lemon Joy was bad.  I'm having no problems with the Ivory, but it is a different barrel.  I can't say I would have any problems if I were using Lemon Joy.  I don't blame you, I wouldn't switch either.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 12:05:00 AM by GHall »

Daryl

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2010, 04:36:11 PM »
As with many things, an excess is too much.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2010, 04:45:47 PM »
When looking at cleaning from a historical standpoint one must consider the time frame, location and if military or civilian.
In 1778 America (or for most of the period pre-1820 in the east) if out in the woods hunting one had to be careful. Shoot, reload and see if someone arrived with a motive other than helping you cut up the the deer.
From what I have read it is unlikely they used water in the field. Likely some tow with tallow on it then some dry tow to get out the tallow, then feather the vent and load again.
You don't want the Shawnee's (for example) arriving while you have a wet gun. Even if you are in your cabin.
Today, or in a military unit security is better due to the numbers present or a more peaceful scenario.
Water/water based cleaners are better but not always the best idea at least historically.

As a side note:
For years I had used various widow cleaners as a soap for BP cleaning solutions. Usually one of the Windex's with vinegar.
HOWEVER. Most formulas have now gone "GREEN". They are also, near as I have been able to determine virulently corrosive.
I had constant after rust problems until I finally wised up (after 3-4 sessions) and stopped using the "environmentally friendly" stuff.
I bought of those handy little gismos that clamps over the vent with a tube to run to a bucket for the swivel breech, use water or a weak solution 1:4 of the old blue windex to water, and virtually no after rusting.
As I have pointed out before soaps are corrosive to some greater or lessor extent. But then also aid cleaning. I used window cleaner for several gallons of cleaner over 2-3 decades and never had a problem until last year with the "new and improved" stuff. Widow cleaners rinse clean so they leave no residue (unless too environmentally friendly I guess) and never caused "problems" previous.
Anyway I am happy again with my cleaning which had REALLY had me wondering for a couple of months. No damage was done that I can tell since I use pretty good rust preventatives but getting red on the patch every time I wiped the oil out was a PITA.
A clear water rinse is a good idea with any use of wetting agents. I like to use a little wetting agent (non-environmetally friendly) since I use natural oils for patch lubes and the soap helps cut any such residue at least in my thinking ;D (?)
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

northmn

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2010, 05:55:55 PM »
I tried the green glass cleaner in a mixture.  Cannot argue with it causing rust.  Going back to water and maybe a little Dawn then a clear rinse.

DP

Daryl

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2010, 12:48:33 AM »
There are many different ways of cleaning and since this is one of the longer threads on this, I've brought it foreward for a new member. Welcome Larry (LDG)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 12:50:17 AM by Daryl »

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2010, 02:28:06 AM »
As with many things, an excess is too much.
yes; but by darn not EVERYTHINGEEE. :D

Offline Skychief

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2010, 05:59:28 AM »
I find it curious, when using hot or boiling water, some have flash rust issues while others do not.   I am in the camp of having the flash rust issues with this method.   Therefore, I have used nothing but tepid or cold water for many years.   Problem gone.    I have also been using WD40 for some time now for peace of mind if nothing else as a water displacer.   A few dry patches, then a bore protector.   I have been using a product called LDS-2 or LDS-3 for years.   Never a rust issue using this product.    Before this, I used simple Hoppe's gun oil.   Come to think of it, I never had any rust issues with it either.  Of course I use several patches to clean out the protectant before shooting, to include the use of alcohol patches.

While our mileage varies greatly about what to clean with, I think many of us would agree with the following.....Get the bore clean using whatever method you have confidence in, and, just as important (and most important to my thinking).....get that bore DRY, DRY, DRY!!!!

Lube and shoot often! ;D

Daryl

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2010, 12:19:03 PM »
I've heard LDS is a good product to use. Around here, the WD 40 is all that's needed.  In more humid areas, further protection is not a bad idea.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2010, 01:42:48 AM »
Hey Daryl!  That LDS stuff really messed us up back in the sixties; sure you want that stuff around again?  ;D ;)
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Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Daryl

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2010, 03:05:29 AM »
We heard it was called LSD?  I guess you were messed up - HA!

Offline Skychief

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2010, 04:40:22 AM »
Hey Daryl!  That LDS stuff really messed us up back in the sixties; sure you want that stuff around again?  ;D ;)

Now THAT is funny right there!   Good one Hanshi. ;D

Muleskinner

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2010, 01:42:27 PM »
The cold water soak method and WD40 works for me in my flinter.....best method I have used.....and I have tried several....

Offline hanshi

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2010, 11:45:42 PM »
We heard it was called LSD?  I guess you were messed up - HA!

Yep, you're right.  See what i mean!  ???
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

William Worth

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Re: Cold water flush
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2010, 02:31:20 PM »
Evidence of dain bamage.  ::) :P