Trade musket details for builders

[Dave B]

I ran across this on a auction and Copied off some pic's for my reference files. I have only seen a few original English fowlers and all have had trigger plates this one has a square nut for the tang bolt inlet under the trigger bow. Its likely for the Indian trade I assume. Its too bad that some one tried to inlet new wood for a lock way too short for the piece. I thought you guys would like to see the details.










Too bad all the piece went different directions

[Mike Brooks]

COOL! No Barrel? That gun could be restored and probably deserves to be. Anybody want to take a stab at dating this gun?

[The other DWS]

looks like an assembly to me. Checking through my copy of Hamilton's Colonial Frontier guns, I'd guess the trigger guard is from a french type D  (CFG p 84) unless the english also used that configuration.  we just don't know enough about the early--pre-NW and HB CO--English trade fusils.
 
The sideplate looks similar to a fragment he considers english (CFG p 96)  and the buttplate I'd guess is english too  (CFG p 92, item B--with the spike removed)

The butt profile is more english than french in the way it is squared off and straight lined.

If the wood is north american my opinion is that it is colonial gun assembled for the english colonies indian trade using salvage parts (the probable french type trigger guard and who knows what else).
If the wood is european I'd guess it is an early english trade gun and that they copied some of the french style hardware in order to tap into the early french domination of the inland indian trade.
 
too bad we can't see any of the missing parts.

In terms of date.  if it is english in origin I'd guess real early--probably pre revolutionary war era.  If its a north american rehash   its still early but maybe up to a generation later.

this is all quasi-educated speculation of course

I'd absolutely LOVE to know the provenance of that item.

[JTR]

Dave B, Would you mind saying which auction company is selling the gun?

As is, this is the sort of work that gives restoration a bad name, and rightfully so. But by the looks of it, someone was working on it, and gave up for what ever reason.
However, there's nothing here that can't be fixed and made to look perfectly natural (old). True, it won't have all its original parts, unless the auction site has them, so the restoration would be more to just save the old stock from going into the trash at some point.

John

[The other DWS]

do auctions "part out" old guns?  unless of course its part of an estate auction and all the workshop stuff is sold separately and they are listing gun stuff on the online auctions.

I'd think the stock, as is, would be a valuable reference piece for someone (like me) or a museum interested in the early trade guns.   

when I was researching I ran across stuff like that in some of the small town museums I visited.   they'd put the nice complete guns and modern stuff, especially ones that belonged to local bigshot families out on display; but old beat up incomplete ones were standing in dusty corners or in barrels in the storage rooms---found a bunch of old french trade gun stuff in that condition.  great for drawing and photographing for my research.

[Levy]

I have one of those same sideplates (it matches the one pictured in Hamilton exactly) and it was found by a river diver in the St. Marks River just south of Tallahassee, FL.  A couple of years ago Wallace Gusler had some trade guns very similar to this at the CLA Show.  I think he referred to them as Cypher Guns because of the wrist escutcheon with the Kings' cypher on it.  There was another gentleman there the same year with a trade gun with the same sideplate.  I agree with Mike's thinking on the time period.

James Levy

[rich pierce]

Any idea what the barrel length might have been?  The buttplate is like one Reeves has from an early trade gun marked Wilson.  However, one argument against it being really early is that it looks like the tang bolt came from above and threaded into a square washer in front of the trigger.  Of course that could be a do-over.  Earliest ones often had the tang bolt coming from below.

[The other DWS]

"Earliest ones often had the tang bolt coming from below"  Which style are you referring to


Trade guns are SO dang confusing and fascinating to me.  We had the early French and some Dutch guns.  The French imported very large numbers of their government arsenal produced versions and distributed them very very widely---St Lawrence watershed, great lakes basin,  the whole Mississippi and Ohio watersheds as well as into the deep south.  Fhey have also been found on the southern plains and of course eastern and much of southern central Canada.
 The HBCO and the NWCO evolved a simpler much less expensive version typified with the large strap iron trigger guard and buttplate. It was widely distributed in their sphere of influence after the demise of New France and French arsenal production. 
 It is apparent that the English produced a number of variations of commercial trade guns which seem to have copied somewhat the French style--for commercial competition reasons in common with fowler and fusil elements. but they are poorly documented  They do not seem to have been as widely distributed probably because of the geography of the indian trade economics.  Most of the reported relics seem to have been in the southern tribal areas.
There has been some speculation that there were some commercial German produced tradeguns brought in and there seem to have even been some spanish types in the southwest.

[rich pierce]

I was referring to early-ish English trade guns; the "Carolina guns" like the Bumford gun on Flintriflesmith's site.  They normally have the tang bolt from below.

[The other DWS]

the tang bolt coming down and ending in a trigger plate, inside the guard was common on a bunch of the french trade guns.
the NW and HBC guns used the up-bolt in front of the trigger guard as I recall.  that bolt (and a wood screw) held the strap iron TG on at the same time as anchoring the barrel tang.  The triggers were simple pinned into the stock.  The Bumford gun looks like it could be an ancestor to the mass-produced cost-cutter HBC guns to my eyes.   An inexpensive gun for the indian trade, but not yet completely pared to the penny
Tthat square "nut" plate inside the guard on the posted stock looks like a substitute for the french trigger plate to me.  The more I look at it the more I think its an colonial assembly of msc. parts.  could have been for the trade or just reusing salvage parts to create a plain but usable hunting gun for whoever.
add:
Just took a closer look at the side plate.  it has been trimmed back the original forward lobe for the crossbolt has been cut off and a new hole punched a screw diameter or a bit more in the forward end of the plate.   Compare it to the one cited in hamilton.  could be that the original rebuild used a slightly shorter lock that would have gone with that english style sideplate.  Now I'm wondering if there was a size/length difference between the english lock and the french one.  

Looks like theer might be a thumbpiece---but they're not showing it ?? 
 also don't the cross bolt holes and the pin holes in the forestock look awfully big--out of proportion.  is is that my imagination?

[Dave B]

JTR,
The Auction was on E-Bay and it all went to different buyers. Barrel was offered as well  but I missed the close, sadly. I have several trade barrels that may work just as well. The lock was pistol size and very nice but out of my range. I will keep the stock as is for a study piece for now, Maybe reproduce the mounts as one of our brothers here has suggested. Maybe I can reunite the barrel with it if the seller will consent to give me their information. It would be a crime to let the parts stay separate.
 

[The other DWS]

Dave,  it'd be nice if, once you get it, you can post some more detailed pictures and measurements. I suspect its got an interesting story to tell us.

    JMHO but the seller should be pilloried for parting it out. 

[Mike Brooks]

This is purely an English gun in it's original form, not a restock. Even though the trigger guard looks french it isn't, this style was popular for a short time on cheap export guns.
 The tang screw coming from the top is normal for this grade of gun, as is the "nut" it screws into.
 It may well be a Cypher gun, the thumbpiece would be a good indicator if we could see it. I'll have to dig out my Cypher gun info, it's been a while since I have reviewed it.
 It's so sad that it was parted out on ebay......

[JTR]

Dave,
At least the stock went to a good home! And congratulations on winning it!
And with any luck you might well get the barrel as well.
The lock isn't a big deal as it isn't original to the gun, and isn't the right one anyway.

And I too dispise the sellers on ebay that part out old ones like this, but as you know ebay doesn't allow complete guns to be sold. The seller would have been better off selling it on one of the gun selling sites, but seems a lot of the ebay sellers just don't give a hoot.

DWS, On a lot of old guns the barrel pin holes are just all chewed up and wallowed out. When you take them apart you'll find that the pins might or might not be original. You'll find modern round nails, old square nails and even pieces of wire, and are bent a bit to help hold them in place.

John

[rich pierce]

I'd agree with Mike that it's English and not a restock.  Better grade trade gun.  Would love to see the lock and know the length and gauge of barrel.

[Dave B]

The barrel was 70 cal and was 40" some I think. The seller made the comment that the stock was originally six inches longer than the sock is, which is like 34" now.

[SR James]

I followed that auction on Ebay as well.  Sorry to see the gun parted out but I'm glad the stock went to a forum member.  Good luck with the barrel.

[RobertS]

I wonder if it would be practical to contact the buyers of the other peices and obtain those parts from them, even if you had to pay a small premium?  If I had happened to be one of the other buyers, I wouldn't mind at all.  I think this is a strategy that some ebay sellers use, as it gets buyers competing against each other for all of the peices of the whole.  Really, the other parts are of comparatively little value for any other purpose, I would think.  Just my 2 cents worth-

[Dave B]

For what its worth I was able to get the seller to forward on my request to the winner of the barrel. " I'll ask him to contact you if he is interested"
I can only hope he's willing to do it even with a premium. I have some other original barrels that he may be interested in taking on trade.  We will see.

[Dave B]

The stock arrived today and is very slim. It is a take down model now however. The boxing was inadequate to protect the for arm and its in about four pieces now. It could be worse I guess. This thing is so light that the box seemed empty. I am going to see about getting some additional pictures and posting them

[josephprivott]

the thumbpeice looks like a Bess part, as does the rest of the hardware (close, but no cigar though). Could you take a picture of the lock area and the remaining thimble please? I can't beleieve they would ship it like that

[Dave B]

I almost ask the guy to be sure to use a stringer of 1X2 to bubble wrap with the for stock but thought it was a no brainer and didnt want to offend. 

 The rod pipe is Thin,like you could cut your self with it if you wernt careful. The bit in the picture of the barrel chanel side is a 1/16"drill. The pipe tabs show that they were reused. There is evidence that the pipe was double pinned the first time around. The remains of the old holes are visible.
The lock is about the size that was probably used the one previous just fits the mortise created by the first restoration attempt. The barrel is an original french .62 section that is close to the size of the original barrel and was instrumental in helping me re-glue the pieces together. I judge by the remaining rod pipe placement this is where the original barrel ended using the 12" between the entry pipe and the second rod pipe as the span for the next portion.  The drill bits you see in the last photo show the thinness of the stock at the transition from fore stock at the entry pipe into the fore-end, using a 1/8" bit and a 1/16" bit for reference.

[JTR]

Dave, Sorry to hear that it got broken during shipping,,,, like the old thing needed anymore distress... If all the bits and pieces and splinters are still in the box you should be able to make a decent repair,, but what a shame it had to get busted in the first place!
So did you manage to get the barrel as well? Or is that one from your stash?
From your pics, the gun looks to be pretty thick in the butt,, so I'm not sure that round tail lock will do the trick. Can you tell from whatever might be left of the original lock mortice what type lock was in there originally?
John

PS. Looks like you fixed it while I was typing this!!! The round face pointy tail lock looks more at home.

[Dave B]

JTR,
I have not been contacted by the winner of the Barrel auction as of yet. I guess they wanted the barrel for its self and not to restore it with the original wood. I checked the bidding and the winner of the barrel never bid on the stock it would seem. Unless he/she was bidding using two different profiles. You can see who
I think I will remove the initial restoration and move the rear section lock panel back toward the wrist portion with new wood. The pointy tail round face lock is what I am thinking of using for its restoration unless I can come up with a better plan. The flat face Tower lock plate you see here could work but its for my restock of a sea service pistol project. The second lock is lining up screw hole wise better than the other two and may be the best option for restoration of what I currently have on hand yet it is not early enough I fear.  I am sure it could have been a round faced for early and flat faced for later What are your thoughts on that?

[JTR]

Dave,
My thoughts are the same as yours regarding locks. I agree with the earlier posters thinking the gun is an early one, Rev War or so. So the square tail one is too late. The Bess style might work, but I think the round face pointy tail would be more appropriate.
I thought I had a picture with me of a similar era fowler I have, but can't find it, so guess its on the home computer. But, Mike Brooks just posted a pic today on the 'First rifle' thread of a fowler he did. Check out the lock on it. That's style of lock is what I'd shoot for.
Another thing, as far as the bolt hole spacing, and again as earlier posters considered. Try to determine if the gun is a straight english type trade gun/fowler, or, if it was originally made up of new and used parts. If it's a 'parts' gun, you could just plug one or both of the bolt holes in your round faced lock, and redrill them in the right place, since originally it could have been a reused lock anyway!

Also, check your private messages. I going to send you something.

John