How to handle this type of 'shooter'

[Roger Fisher]

Consider this recent experience and how to handle.......

I watched in awe at a recent line shoot a newer shooter get into more and various trouble with his 'new' rifle than I ever witnessed in one day (or week for that matter)
This guy had miss fires w/his flint long rifle (often) dry balled several times, and he just HAD to wipe with seperate patch between the few shots he managed to get off.
He continuously got the steel loading rod jammed into the bore.  And I mean this went on and on and on.  Mike J. (running the shoot) spent 2/3 of the day trying to help the guy including pulling the sett trikkers to add tension to the trikkers.  Naturally the poor guy set up next to me.  This going on and on was unbelieveable.
Between relay I talked to him as nicely as I could and explained what the screw driver slot was for in the touchhole liner and that he should take the thing home then pull the liner and trim it back til it was at or at least near a good fit to the concave shape of the side flat. Out and in a few times til his rod jag with patch would clear it and get to the breech face and to turn down his jag diameter. Explained that according to what was happening his liner was never trimmed back and was sticking into the bore and had built up a fouling rock and jamming his rod jag etc etc etc etc.
He was pretty well cleaning out my supply of bandaids and bled all over some of my then virgin targets....I asked him if the piece was a cva and he said all I know is that it was made in Spain

A point here is that the poor guy was trying and trying and trying; but losing blood like he was did not help his thought processes......  He had showed up at this shoot at 7:30 A.M anxious to shoot...  

This guy went down the same road last Nov at the same shoot and had hrs and hrs of frustration.  He had not touched the rifle since then so did not fix or get his problems fixed.  He actually upset the shooters near him.....What I'm saying here is that I never ever saw a shooter so screwed up for so many hrs and hrs Hard to believe.......

Now I tried to be nice and I hope he does what I suggested to fix it.  BTW he barely hit the paper. Isn't that a surprise?

What would you do with a guy like that?  Continue to put up with him and try your darndest to straighten him out or just kill him

[wvmtnman]

   I was that guy when I first got into shooting muzzleloaders, but I was only 12.  I didn't know anyone who shot muzzleloaders, but hey I just saw Jeremiah Johnson for the first time and I wanted a muzzleloader.  
   The only thing I would do is tell the guy how to properly care for the rifle and give the example of the other people and yourself having rifles that function properly.  Give him a tutorial, write it down and talk him through it, then review how to clean and operate the rifle.  Then again, I'm a teacher so that is what I would do.
   Chances are, he gets home and gets distracted with home life and forgets to clean or does not have the proper supplies.  Help him out properly one more time, that might be the help he needs to stay in the hobby. (And we need more of the proper types of people in this hobby)  If the problem continues, cut your losses.  He is an adult.
                                                 Just my 2 cents, Brian

[Candle Snuffer]

Well there's no point in killin' him out right, he's probably bled to death by now all ready...

Roger, try as you might, I know where you're coming from on this.  We hashed a similar topic over about guys blowing out their nipple and just all around people who do not want to admit they just don't know what they're doing and no amount of help will ever get them on the right tract - as they are a know it all.

If this guy really has a genuine interest in learning - he will learn from the veteran shooters.  If his interest is just passive, he'll never learn a thing as he's not taking this seriously.  You have to take this sport seriously in the beginning to learn, so that when you are learned, you can start having fun.

Perhaps a little one on one some off weekend when you don't have a shoot and if he's willing to learn, you might get him to the Range with no one else except the two of you, and try to teach him.  This might tell the tale of how serious he is about the sport?

And there's less witnesses...

[smylee grouch]

I have been range officer on at least two ocasions just like that. The first time, I got some one else to run the range and the lost sole and I had a private hart to hart talk. I tried to get across to him that he was new and frustrated and should calm down, and also we could not, for safty sake, permit him to go on as he had. We just had to get him organized and his gun working properly. He used a loaner the rest of the shoot and had a good time, got his gun overhauled when he got home. I let the second guy use one of my guns with alot of coaching from me and other shooters and he hung up his imported gun and bought a TC. I was lucky, they listened and understood.   Gary

[billd]

If you think the guy shows some promise offer to meet him at the range on a off day one on one and try to teach him. If that doesn't work then you can shoot him.

Bill

[bob in the woods]

We have had the same thing at some of our matches, and usually I try and help. But, our matches are timed...so it can get to be a real pain. A few times now I tell them to wait until I finishmy target, and then Ill help. Even the range officer can't be tied up to the point where he can't effectively watch the big picture.
After the 3rd dry ball, I give up. It is no longer "help" ;  it's " enabling"   

[Roger B]

I (& this is just me) would probably just rack my rifle & work with the guy.  That way he doesn't get hurt, nobody else gets hurt, he learns something, & we get another shooter into the fold.  This is not because I'm an incredible humanitarian; I just enjoy it.  I won a lot of shoots in my teens through my late 30s, & when I quit winning I got so upset with myself that shooting became stressful.  When I finally decided that winning wasn't the point & I started teaching & hanging out at the shoots, I started winning again.   I get about as much satisfaction watching a new shooter develop as I used to get from winning. 
Roger B.

[The other DWS]

 If you want to salvage him as a M/L shooter I'd suggest sending him a well written letter outlining what you figured the mechanical problem to be.  I'd deal strictly with the mechanical issues.  As you describe it it sounds like he was so stressed out that any verbal communication and advice went in one ear and out the others.  Once away from the range and match pressure it might click with him.  If your motivation, time, and distance permit an offer of assistance might be appropriate.

We had a local CC club that periodically offered a M/L 101 class periodically when MI first set up the separate M/L deer season.  Printed out little ticket/announcements and got the local shops that were selling M/L stuff to give each purchaser one.  the free tuneup/set up/basic training session really helped build their club numbers.   I recall that the guy who was telling me about it was amazed at the number of out-of-the-box new guns that were basically unshootable without lock and or breech work.

[Ky-Flinter]

I agree with those that suggested a 1 on 1 session at the range on a non-shoot day.  For this guy to endure all he has....  at least twice.... and keep trying shows me he's committed and wants to succeed.

On the mechanical corrections needed to his gun, perhaps he does not have the tools or the talent to do this work.  Offer to show him what needs to be done and how to do it.....  again, on a non-shoot day.

Kudos to you Roger for not tomahawking the guy on the spot.  I know from experience it's maddening to be continually distracted during a match.

-Ron

[T*O*F]

For this guy to endure all he has....  at least twice.... and keep trying shows me he's committed and wants to succeed

One can never judge a person's motivation.  Some people are happiest when they are miserable.  He could also be relieving his stress level by taking out his frustrations on his gun instead of his wife or job.

Offer your help.  If he says no, he has other issues.

[Roger Fisher]

I agree with those that suggested a 1 on 1 session at the range on a non-shoot day.  For this guy to endure all he has....  at least twice.... and keep trying shows me he's committed and wants to succeed.

On the mechanical corrections needed to his gun, perhaps he does not have the tools or the talent to do this work.  Offer to show him what needs to be done and how to do it.....  again, on a non-shoot day.

Kudos to you Roger for not tomahawking the guy on the spot.  I know from experience it's maddening to be continually distracted during a match.

-Ron

These occurences were not at our club or an local club for that matter,  they Nov & last Sunday occured at a club shoot 1 hr & 35 minutes down the pike!  It would not be the first time I spent nearly a full day at our range with a new guy!

We'll see how it goes a month from now at that club's next shoot...

I must say he was safety oriented enough to mind his muzzle.  He did come back towards the loading bench with a hot rifle til he saw my glaring eyeballs then went back to the line to 'try' to clear it..................I wonder what I failed to notice in that context!

[longcruise]

An organized match or shoot is not the place for a newbie to learn.  But, maybe that is the only shooting opportunity available to him?

If he will accept assistance, then maybe someone with a shop could invite the guy to visit with his rifle and go over the problems and help him fix it.  It creates an opportunity to talk about shooting in general.  Many shooting tips can be passed on while the gun is worked on.

An invitation to a private shooting session would be a better learning environment than a formal shoot.

If the guy won't accept help then ask him to stay away from the formal shoots until he has learned to manage his rifle.

If the relays are not timed, maybe they should be?

I teach my grandkids to shoot and they eventually get to shoot in a formal match.  I go with them as a non-shooter and coach.  Since the shoots are timed, they get to shoot as many shots as they can during the timed period.  They make mistakes that slow them down and don't always get all their shots off but that's part of the game for newbies and experienced shooters.

[seesbirds]

Just before my first rendezvous, I bought a traditions flintlock mostly because it was a "pretty" gun with weeping heart inlays in the stock.  I shot it a few times at that rendezvous in MN and a fellow there told me that I ought to quit using a priming horn and prime with the powder I carried in my horn (FF) and that I should drill out my touchhole liner so priming with FF would work better.  The gun was so poorly made that the touchhole was below the pan and I had at least 5X as many snaps as I had shots out of the @!*% thing as long as I was using it.

At my second rondy the range marshall told me that I should go home and "wallow out" the pan some more so the touchhole wasn't below the pan anymore.  I did that and it helped with the number of snaps I had so I took it to an EPR in PA and entered a 5 bull match.  After the second shot, I couldn't get the @!*% thing to fire anymore and while everyone else was finishing up with their 5 shots, I was struggling with my second or third.  The gun simply would not fire.  By this time, of course, I was badly shaken as all the other shooters stood back in the treeline and muttered softly about my "performance."  The range marshall came over and asked me what I was using to prime and I told him that it was FF  that I had been told to do that in MN and he said "that's bullsh#t."  He turned to the assembled crowd and shouted: "Anyone got some 4F?"  some one stepped forward, they primed my gun and it fired.  However I was so shaken up that I hit the target posted below mine thereby disqualifying that guy.  Feeling embarrassed and frustrated I took off before the guy I had inadvertently disqualified could step up to take down his target.

I tried shooting that gun several more times but even with the FFFF it snapped more than it fired so I eventually made it a wall hanger and went out and bought a much better gun.

I tell you this for two reasons.  First, I got no advice bad advice and then  regarding the gun I was using i.e. I bought it on my own and then to  use FF to prime and "wallow out the pan" .  To a man, everybody there on the line in PA was at least annoyed by me and with the exception of the range officer NO BODY stepped up to coach me or offer suggestions either during or after the shoot.  If we want our sport to grow or at least maintain the status quo, I think we ought to take it upon ourselves to help newbies so that they don't lose interest or stop shooting out of fear of ridicule. Secondly, I want to apologize to that shooter, whomever he was, for disqualifying him.    I didn't mean to do that and I'm sorry.

Please take time to help newbies.  In the long run it will mean better competition and who knows, you might even get a lifelong friend out of the deal.

Regards,

mark

[Roger Fisher]

Just before my first rendezvous, I bought a traditions flintlock mostly because it was a "pretty" gun with weeping heart inlays in the stock.  I shot it a few times at that rendezvous in MN and a fellow there told me that I ought to quit using a priming horn and prime with the powder I carried in my horn (FF) and that I should drill out my touchhole liner so priming with FF would work better.  The gun was so poorly made that the touchhole was below the pan and I had at least 5X as many snaps as I had shots out of the @!*% thing as long as I was using it.

At my second rondy the range marshall told me that I should go home and "wallow out" the pan some more so the touchhole wasn't below the pan anymore.  I did that and it helped with the number of snaps I had so I took it to an EPR in PA and entered a 5 bull match.  After the second shot, I couldn't get the @!*% thing to fire anymore and while everyone else was finishing up with their 5 shots, I was struggling with my second or third.  The gun simply would not fire.  By this time, of course, I was badly shaken as all the other shooters stood back in the treeline and muttered softly about my "performance."  The range marshall came over and asked me what I was using to prime and I told him that it was FF  that I had been told to do that in MN and he said "that's bullsh#t."  He turned to the assembled crowd and shouted: "Anyone got some 4F?"  some one stepped forward, they primed my gun and it fired.  However I was so shaken up that I hit the target posted below mine thereby disqualifying that guy.  Feeling embarrassed and frustrated I took off before the guy I had inadvertently disqualified could step up to take down his target.

I tried shooting that gun several more times but even with the FFFF it snapped more than it fired so I eventually made it a wall hanger and went out and bought a much better gun.

I tell you this for two reasons.  First, I got no advice bad advice and then  regarding the gun I was using i.e. I bought it on my own and then to  use FF to prime and "wallow out the pan" .  To a man, everybody there on the line in PA was at least annoyed by me and with the exception of the range officer NO BODY stepped up to coach me or offer suggestions either during or after the shoot.  If we want our sport to grow or at least maintain the status quo, I think we ought to take it upon ourselves to help newbies so that they don't lose interest or stop shooting out of fear of ridicule. Secondly, I want to apologize to that shooter, whomever he was, for disqualifying him.    I didn't mean to do that and I'm sorry.

Please take time to help newbies.  In the long run it will mean better competition and who knows, you might even get a lifelong friend out of the deal.

Regards,

mark

Please take a moment and read my original post again (or for the first time)  I want to make it crystal clear that 'we' 3 of us helped, explained, advised him on safety and the problems with his spainish 'rifle 2 of us for the better part of 2 days at 2 shoots 6 months apart - not for minutes not for hours but for most of each day.  We explained what appeared to be giving him misfires, delays, no spark, and range rod jammed in the barrel repeatedly til it got sickening.  The main point is he was treated with patience and respect but after having 6 months to have the corrections made to said rifle he did nothing to correct  the problems and had a repeat of the same problems over and over again.   

So much patience but so little time.   Looking for advice on this one for certain.  After all we like to get a little shooting done also.    

[eagle24]

Roger,
I am pretty new to flintlock shooting myself.  I understand your frustration and don't envy the position he has put you and the other shooters in.  This is my second year shooting and it has taken me this long to get familiar with the process and learn to recognize and deal with whatever problem I might be having.  I've also finally developed MY process for the things I do on the range.  I didn't even THINK of shooting a match last year because I didn't want to put myself under the pressure this guy has put on himself.  Maybe you could talk to him and suggest that he take some days to just go to the range by himself and do some shooting.  Suggest to him that he won't be under pressure and can relax and take his time.  Also, offer yourself available to answer any questions that he might have (sounds like you are/have done this already).  I really wanted and needed some range time alone.  I know enough now that I don't need any help and when I spend some time shooting by myself I seem to make more progress.  And lastly, stress to him again that he has to fix the issues with his rifle (and equipment) or he is going to hate his time at the range and it will be most unproductive for him.

PS  You could also suggest he join the ALR and read this thread.

[Daryl]

Roger- you done good - and as much as you could have.  Many people lack your compassion for the sport and your willingness to help someone new.   I/we know how you feel - up here, many of us feel in a very similar way with guys who continue to have difficulty with fouling & to wipe their bores - frustrating, isn't it.

[Frank]

If he comes back a third time with the same problems, he needs to be taken off the line until he gets the problems with his rifle fixed. This guy is an accident waiting to happen.

[Pete G.]

I think that I would take this guy's rifle, unscrew the liner and file the back end down where it did not catch the jag in the bore. You can't fix any of the other problems until there is a properly functioning rifle.

[seesbirds]

Roger,

I meant no offense.  I was just relating an experience I had when I started out and I almost quit shooting because of it.  I think you and your friends did yeomans work with that guy and have no issue with your behavior. ya done good!

Mark

[Leatherbelly]

Ya, just wallow out that there pan thingee, and drill a 3/16th hole in 'er and yer good ta go! Mark, good story,lmao!
  Roger, just killum!

[Eric Krewson]

I have encountered this type of problem with fledgling bow makers, completely lost and don't know which way to turn.

I like to teach the craft so I invite them to my shop for a day of hands on instruction. A guy called yesterday for advice, I invited him to my shop. He will be here Thursday and will be driving over a hundred miles to get here.

Same with flintlocks, I have met several people who have shown an interest and invited them to at least come over for an orientation and to take a few shots. Perhaps I can rope them into a little gun building in the future.

Some of my best friends now are either people who shared their knowledge with me when I was a green horn or people I have helped after I became a competent craftsman.

[Roger Fisher]

Roger,

I meant no offense.  I was just relating an experience I had when I started out and I almost quit shooting because of it.  I think you and your friends did yeomans work with that guy and have no issue with your behavior. ya done good!

Mark

$#*! no, none taken or even thought about!!  I'm only curious of how other clubs and shooters handle such a tough nut

[Daryl]

You can only help so much, before frustration will ruin your day. Then, it's time to let them find out themselves or pester someone else. I admit to having a 'long rope' for such matters as I still keep trying to help whenever asked (and sometimes even when I ain't ).

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Roger,

You didn't happen to ask God for patience in your prayers did you?  If you did, He's giving you a workout.

Stick with the guy.  Be kind, polite, but firm.  If he shows up a third time it is perfectly fair to explain to him that you will not be able to devote the same amount of time to him as before since you've come here to shoot.

You have all sorts of options.  Offer to meet him on a non-competitive day.  Organize with other club members to take turns.  Tell him about ALR.  Tell him that you can devote time when you are done shooting.

Heck the guy ain't gonna win any time soon so he shouldn't feel pressured to complete the course.  Just shoot as many shots as he can.

Hang in there.  Show patience.  And you'll come away a better man because of it.  You'll win our admiration.

[Waksupi]

People who will not take the time to learn their firearm, and how it works, don't have much business at a shoot. You see the same people, with the same problems, time after time.
The ones that annoy me most, are cap lock shooters, who will not take a few minutes at home, to make the nipple the right size for their caps. Nipples are a one size fits all product, and need fitting. I see so many who need more than one hammer fall to ignite the cap. And, they have been told the solution repeatedly.
The final solution? Two hammer falls is a miss. If three falls with a flinter is a miss, two is fair for a cap gun. I've noticed more of them fix their gun in this case.