Half stock opinions wanted

[billd]

I've had an idea in my head but I wanted input from more knowledgeable people.  I'm thinking about building a short English style rifle similar to the Chambers English kit gun......but in a half stock with a Rice barrel, either a 31 or 32 inch, a big bore, either a .58 or a .62.  I have seen many half stock shotguns but never a rifle.  Then again, there's lots I haven't seen.  Would this be at least half PC correct and how would the under rib work out with a swamped barrel?

I have built several half stock rifles, but all with straight or straight taper barrels. I know how to solder ribs on.

Anyone have any pictures?

Thank You,
Bill

[David Rase]

Bill,  I am building a half stock English sporting rifle.  To be honest, I only have the barrel inlet and the stock bandsaw profiled and it is not even close to being next on my list to complete.  I am using the Chambers late Ketland lock, tapered Lynn Wiemer barrel, English walnut stock, iron butt and trigger guard.  The gun will be pistol gripped.  As for the under rib, I bought one of the sheet metal ribs from Rice.  When I get around to attaching the under rib, I will  pinch the under rib, narrowing it up to match the taper, and then attach it.  I don't know if I will solder it or rivet it to the barrel.  I am worried about not being able to clean up the open area between the bottom barrel flat and the under rib.
Dave 

[Dphariss]

Get the original Purdey print from Track of the Wolf. There is little difference in this rifle and a late flint aside from the percussion parts. It illustrates about everything you need to know.

The plan has a great stock design and even in a fairly light rifle will tolerate heavy loads in a 20 or 16 bore rifle with no pain.
Bailey's "British Military Flintlock Rifles" has a chapter on Tatham Indian Trade Rifles which are 54 caliber better grade English Sporting Rifles in flint.
Below is a 16 bore with a straight taper barrel 30" long and I think it weighs about 10 pounds.
I made my own rib for this project but screwed it on rather than solder.

Dan

[Dave B]

Here is a pic of my swamped Oct to round barrel I put a Rice rib on. I contoured the rib to get the general shape of the barrel then ground the final shape to fit the barrel contour at the waist and muzzle. I took a file to the barrel at the point of contact to level out the transitions from the waist area where the rib rested when clamped into place preventing gaps at these areas.  The thing on top of the barrel was a copper slug just under bore size to keep the temperature  of the barrel up for soldering like a soldering Iron. It really made the process much easier to keep the heat even.

[northmn]

A few fine points on these guns.  Dan's picture shows a typical one, however a L&R English Rainproof lock (some call it the Hawken flintlock) or similar will work.  They used water buffalo horn nosecaps and the wrist was often checkered.  English style cheekpiece, and the patchbox is optional, but Dan's does show the casehardening type metal finish used.  Flintlocks mostly had 2 barrel keys but on a short barrel one might use one.  Very simple washer type side plate. 

DP

[Roger B]

Dan:
What is the source for the lock & breech on your rifle?
Roger B.

[billd]

I was planning on a full octagon swamped barrel because there easy to get and top quality, thanks to Mr. Rice.  That's my concern about the rib.  If he made an O/R I would definitly use one.

Bill

[Dphariss]

Dan:
What is the source for the lock & breech on your rifle?
Roger B.

Joseph Manton and Nock. The lock is from The Rifle Shoppe and is from a Joe Manton Rifle according to them.

Some say that Nock breeches were not used on rifles but this one works very well is good quality powder.

This a recessed breech shotgun at the Museum at Cody WY. I have no idea if it has Nock breeches or not.



If you look here
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?pos=6&intObjectID=1901194&sid=
you will find a Tatham Indian Trade rifle and a John Manton rifle both with recessed breeches and the Manton has a "V" pan lock, if not the last very close to the last evolution of the flintlock and is very much like a percussion rifle, very late flint rifle of the same bore size as my rifle.
 Items 66 and 68.

Dan

[Dphariss]

A few fine points on these guns.  Dan's picture shows a typical one, however a L&R English Rainproof lock (some call it the Hawken flintlock) or similar will work.  They used water buffalo horn nosecaps and the wrist was often checkered.  English style cheekpiece, and the patchbox is optional, but Dan's does show the casehardening type metal finish used.  Flintlocks mostly had 2 barrel keys but on a short barrel one might use one.  Very simple washer type side plate. 

DP

This lock is not really refined enough for a good quality English gun. Its an export quality lock and while correct for an American rifle from circa 1800 till the 1850s its not what I would use on a English rifle.
There are numerous subtle differences in the better locks, the size of the cock and frizzen, the distance from the pan to the frizzen pivot etc. The cock on the rifle I built has a throw just under 1 1/4". The L&R has a  1.5" throw.
The L&R with the double throat cock is a very good lock with only minor tuning. But its not a late English flintlock as used on better grade guns.

Dan

[keweenaw]

If you barrel has a lot of swamp, applying the rib will be tricky but what will be worse is that the ramrod will have to bend to go through the thimbles unless you're careful to keep the rib straight. Most of the original rifles of this type either had straight or straight tapered barrels.  With some careful filing you can fit the hollow rib to the barrel while keeping the bottom straight before you solder it to the barrel.  You will also want to use high temp silver solder to solder the thimbles to the rib before you solder the rib to the barrel.  Why don't you use that nice swamped barrel to build a short full stock rifle and get a tapered for another half stock project?

Tom

[northmn]

I mentioned the L&R because it is close in style,  Allen and Chambers also build a similar lock I believe whcih may also serve.  Depends on ones budget.  English rifles were not ornate like an longrifle (which to them leaned toward gaudy) but were very elegant in their own way.  You can see the engraving on the double Dan pictured.  You also have to consider that no one person built an English rifle.  They were assembled or built by several specialists.  My next creation will be an English "inspired" rifle for that reason. 

DP

[Robby]

Bill, I have made a few half stock guns using a swamped barrel. They make real nice, trim off hand shooters. I made wooden under ribs for them. I used the same wood as the stock, but a contrasting wood like ebony could be used for accent. It seems to me, if you use a steel rib, it would have to conform perfectly to the swamp when soldered. If you clamp it into conformation,and file or mill the ramrod groove straight, there would be some built in stress, that might affect the accuracy of the barrel as it heats and cools. Then again maybe not. My philosophy is, every thing affects everything else, to what degree and is it a positive or a negative, are the questions I ask myself. Good luck!
Robby

[Captchee]